re: 3x church thread

[standingfirminChrist]

a great responsibility.

 

[Amy.G]

When the Bible says that the "church" met everyday, do you think it means that every single believer gathered every single day? This would mean literally thousands meeting all at the same time in one place. I think it meant the church as a whole. I could say that the church meets every day even in this day and age because there are Christians all over the world and on every day of the week there are always some gathered together. But, to say that the individual person went to church every day is not realistic, especially in a day and time when a person had to walk where ever they went. They would have had to live right next door to the church.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

When the Bible says that the "church" met everyday, do you think it means that every single believer gathered every single day? This would mean literally thousands meeting all at the same time in one place. I think it meant the church as a whole. I could say that the church meets every day even in this day and age because there are Christians all over the world and on every day of the week there are always some gathered together. But, to say that the individual person went to church every day is not realistic, especially in a day and time when a person had to walk where ever they went. They would have had to live right next door to the church.

No, it meant all members. The verse says they continued in the temple and broke bread from house to house with singleness of heart. They all knew and agreed that it was important to meet daily.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

There was a unity in the Body of Beleivers in that time. No dissention, no complaining. They were in perfect agreement and met daily...every believer, just as the Word of God says.

 

[EdSutton]

A God ordained pastor will not lead the flock astray.

Just getting into this thread, but where does Scripture say anything about "God ordained pastors". Somehow I cannot find such a wording in any Bible I own.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Boy...I'm trying hard to resist the urge....


whew. That was close.

:laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I don't want to comment on your statements.. I just want to say I like your new picture.. I love that beard! I wish I could grow one like that.
Nice picture...:wavey:

Get a little older, and you can probably grow a beard like that. Mine looks virtually like the one on the left when I let it grow, and the one on the right when I trim it up.

Good pictures, Standing firm! Handsome like I wish I was, beyond the beard. :laugh:

Ed

 

[tinytim]

My facial hair grows very slow, and spotty.. as a matter of fact....I only have to shave twice a week... so if I started now, I would be 180 yrs old before I would have that much beard!!!

 

[EdSutton]

My facial hair grows very slow, and spotty.. as a matter of fact....I only have to shave twice a week... so if I started now, I would be 180 yrs old before I would have that much beard!!!

Well, I guess that you could buy one in a costume store. :laugh: You do have a good "stache", so you might still get a good beard, but mine did not happen overnight, either. BTW, as a (former) "dirty blond', mine did not appear as full or thick then, as it does now, when white.

Frankly, I would happily trade some of my beard, just to get some of that hair to move up to the top of my head, where it is now thinning greatly, after my chemo.

Ed

 

[JDale]

I'm not joking! Don't you believe that the will of God will never lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you?

But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:19)

"True faith is not the intellctual ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds,; it is rather the moral power to trust Christ." --A.W.Tozer, The Divine Conquest, pg. 50

Of course I believe that the will of God will never lead where the grace of God can't keep... That's not the issue here, though.

Too often, those from more extreme Fundamentalist circles cede too much authority to the Pastor of the Local Church (I've been a Pastor/Preacher for 20 years this month -- I've SEEN it). Baptists have ALWAYS affirmed the Biblical principle of the Priesthood of the Believer. Every Christian is directly responsible to God.

Of course, in the Church, there is the need for the Elders -- and an "overseer," or "chief Elder" -- a Pastor. He certainly has general superintendence (and the authority that goes with it) in the local body. But PLEASE, DON'T give him the authority to make decisions for you personally -- spiritually or otherwise.

If the Pastor tells you to jump off a cliff because it's God's will, would you? If he demands your bank statements to see if you are truly tithing, would you surrender them? If he asks about your "marital relations," would you volunteer the information?

My point is not to be rude or ludicrous, but to point out that there is a limit, a line drawn in Scripture, beyond which "Pastoral authority" CANNOT and should not tread. And if Scripture doesn't do it, then consider it just plain old fashioned common sense.

JDale

 

[JDale]

Since Acts 2 records that they met daily in the temple, and the Virginia laws record that preachers met on Sundays and Wednesdays in the 1600's, I think it is safe to say the closing of the doors on Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings, or man's decision not to go when the doors were opened was not until recent times.

And to think people think it is ok to choose self over church... for shame!

Yet another example of "going to church," not BEING the Church.

JDale

 

[webdog]

Just getting into this thread, but where does Scripture say anything about "God ordained pastors". Somehow I cannot find such a wording in any Bible I own.

Ed

This is an excellent point...it's not there. Some pastors get a big head thinking God ordained them, when in fact God called them. The people do the ordaining.

 

[JDale]

Better get out your Bible and study, tim. The early Church met daily in the temple.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

They met daily in the temple for worship and dined together in houses .

You are confusing the JEWISH traditions of the early Church with what is normative of the Church as the Body of Christ today.

Those early Jewish believers met in the Temple daily because (1) they were IN Jerusalem (2) that is what they had ALWAYS done as devout Jews in Jerusalem.

WHat was normative to them in those early years had already changed over the next 30 years -- as was recorded in the Book of Acts. Oh, the Judaizers still insisted that Christians should live and practice as Jews -- but Paul came to call them false teachers.

Another problem -- using Acts as a docrinal or practical model. How many times have I heard Fundamentalists SCREAM about not treating Acts as a doctrinal or theological norm with regard to "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and "tongues." And I agree. But then neither should Fundamentalist Baptists insist we follow the early traditions of the first Jewish Christians either.

The Church is NOT the Temple, and we are NOT Jews. Thus, church attendance cannot be equated to the daily Temple practice of the first Jewish disciples of Jesus.

JDale

 

[JDale]

As pastors, we are to exhort people to be in Church as often as possible. If they signed a membership roster, they agreed to certain bylaws of the Church. Support was the most important, IMO. And support is not just financially, but also physical. There is a responsibility of the pastor to preach attendance and there is also a responsibility of the member to attend.

Are those signed membership rosters as binding as the principles of Scripture?

Are they anything like the "fence laws" and "traditions of the elders" which Jesus 'discussed' with the Pharisees in Mark 7?

JDale

 

[JDale]

In Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Colossians 4:15; and Philemon 1:2, we see a Church being in a household. But that does not mean that there were not other Churches in buildings constructed for that purpose as well.

Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 3:5 that if a man could not rule his own house, how shall he take care of the Church of God? It is evident from this Scripture that the Church was not just in the house.

There is NO archeological evidence that "church buildings" were constructed (for the purpose of Christian worship) until AFTER Constantine adopted Christianity as the "state religion" or Rome -- and created Roman Catholicism.

So, do Fundamentalists now agree with RC? This whole argument is what Os Guinness has called "the Catholic error." Indeed, it sounds quite parallel to RC reasoning.

JDale

 

[JDale]

No, it meant all members. The verse says they continued in the temple and broke bread from house to house with singleness of heart. They all knew and agreed that it was important to meet daily.

There are no rolls or records, and the language simply doesn't support what you contend about ALL members meeting EVERY day....

JDale

 

[pinoybaptist]

This is an excellent point...it's not there. Some pastors get a big head thinking God ordained them, when in fact God called them. The people do the ordaining.

And along with the big puffed up heads come way out doctrines and teachings.

Like, don't go against what the pastor teaches even if you think it's out of line with Scriptures because God ordained them and they are like Moses and the Bible says "touch not mine anointed".

So now the pastor teaches double your tithes, children, and creates elitism in church, like "the twenty percenters". And these are now under pressure to show that God is blessing them all else......

Don't mind me, I'm just reminded of crazy doctrines in the Philippines.
Don't know if you have them here.

 

[dan e.]

You are confusing the JEWISH traditions of the early Church with what is normative of the Church as the Body of Christ today.

Those early Jewish believers met in the Temple daily because (1) they were IN Jerusalem (2) that is what they had ALWAYS done as devout Jews in Jerusalem.

WHat was normative to them in those early years had already changed over the next 30 years -- as was recorded in the Book of Acts. Oh, the Judaizers still insisted that Christians should live and practice as Jews -- but Paul came to call them false teachers.

Another problem -- using Acts as a docrinal or practical model. How many times have I heard Fundamentalists SCREAM about not treating Acts as a doctrinal or theological norm with regard to "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and "tongues." And I agree. But then neither should Fundamentalist Baptists insist we follow the early traditions of the first Jewish Christians either.

The Church is NOT the Temple, and we are NOT Jews. Thus, church attendance cannot be equated to the daily Temple practice of the first Jewish disciples of Jesus.

JDale

good points. I agree in the danger of using Acts as a prescriptive model, and not reading it as descriptive.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Of course I believe that the will of God will never lead where the grace of God can't keep... That's not the issue here, though.

Too often, those from more extreme Fundamentalist circles cede too much authority to the Pastor of the Local Church (I've been a Pastor/Preacher for 20 years this month -- I've SEEN it). Baptists have ALWAYS affirmed the Biblical principle of the Priesthood of the Believer. Every Christian is directly responsible to God.

Of course, in the Church, there is the need for the Elders -- and an "overseer," or "chief Elder" -- a Pastor. He certainly has general superintendence (and the authority that goes with it) in the local body. But PLEASE, DON'T give him the authority to make decisions for you personally -- spiritually or otherwise.

If the Pastor tells you to jump off a cliff because it's God's will, would you? If he demands your bank statements to see if you are truly tithing, would you surrender them? If he asks about your "marital relations," would you volunteer the information?

My point is not to be rude or ludicrous, but to point out that there is a limit, a line drawn in Scripture, beyond which "Pastoral authority" CANNOT and should not tread. And if Scripture doesn't do it, then consider it just plain old fashioned common sense.

JDale

Since the Word of God says that we should... no, are to assemble, and so much the more... then the pastor is not out of line in telling his congregation they are to assemble often. That lines up with the Scripture.

If the pastor tells his congregation to do anything, they need to check the Word of God and make sure it lines up with the Word.

Pastors are set up as authority figures in the Church. They are to shepherd the flock in the ways of the Lord. A sheep that will not listen to the shepherd eventually falls into mischief.

1 Peter 5 lays down the guidlines for the pastor.
1 Peter 5:1-5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

If the pastor sees certain members falling away or stumbling in any area of the faith, it is the pastors responsibility to 'reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.' He is to rebuke at times.

Solomon wrote in Proverbs 13:1 'A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.'

If one is of the Body of Believers, one will hear the rebuke and turn again to that which is right.

A pastor that tells his flock that they are to be in Church is not going against the Word at all.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This is an excellent point...it's not there. Some pastors get a big head thinking God ordained them, when in fact God called them. The people do the ordaining.

Romans 13:1 clearly states that the powers that be are ordained by God. God gives the pastors certain authority, or power. So, they indeed are ordained by God.