re: 3x church thread

[tinytim]

But a pastor that oversteps and says that they must quit their job to be in church is overstepping his bounds.

Of course we should "encourage" church attendance... but not force it.
Of course when I see that someone is forsaking the assembling together I go check on them.. I usually give them 3 weeks... of NO attendance.

I always hated it when my pastor was on my doorstep Sunday afternoon asking.... before I got called to preach, I answered to God not the pastor.

Now that I pastor, I remind them they answer to God and not to me...

We have to find a balance.
How do we encourage without badgering them?

If we answer this truthfully, these threads can be edifying

 

[standingfirminChrist]

3 weeks???

By that time, the person can have built up a hatred for such an uncaring Church that it does not call or visit for a long period.

I had a visitation committee at my last pastorate and at least one member of the committee was either calling or visiting no later than the second day after the first absence of the congregant.

 

[dan e.]

An honest question:

Do you seriously see a spiritual problem if a member of the church misses a Wednesday night? If so, none of these verses shown give any sort of testimony that this is true. None whatsoever. Missing a meeting does not suggest forsaking to assemble. Like so many other issues discussed, this sounds like a cultural, maybe a generational issue. You are from a different generation that apparrantly wishes to live under colonial laws. By the way, that isn't the best example to use. I know you didn't bring it up...but just because something happened in the past, doesn't suggest that it is the Godliest and most Biblical way to live.

Anyways....my point is that all the Scriptures thrown around do not prove that a person missing a church meeting has any kind of issues spiritually. I'd say that a person stuck up on making sure they show up at every meeting out of obedience to their pastor has more issues. Now you'll show me a verse that says something about meeting together....and I'm not denying that....it still won't show that there is a biblical mandate to attend every time a door is unlocked at the church.

 

[JDale]

...If the pastor tells his congregation to do anything, they need to check the Word of God and make sure it lines up with the Word.

Pastors are set up as authority figures in the Church. They are to shepherd the flock in the ways of the Lord. A sheep that will not listen to the shepherd eventually falls into mischief.

1 Peter 5 lays down the guidlines for the pastor.
1 Peter 5:1-5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

THe passage I've highlighted is the one that stands out to me. The Pastor isn't to rule as a dictator. Period. He has authority, he has oversight -- but the WORD of GOD is the ultimate authority to the believer.

David Guzik says it this way:

Nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock: Shepherds should not do their job as lords, because the sheep do not belong to them. The sheep are entrusted to them. Instead, shepherds are to serve by being examples, not dictators.... Nor as being lords shows that in the mind of Peter, shepherds had significant authority in the early church. If the office of shepherd was so powerless that a shepherd didn’t rule and lead, then there was little potential for being lords. But because Peter gives this warning, it shows there was the potential for lording over.... The sobering fact is that pastors are examples to the flock, whether they intend to be or not. It is interesting to see how a congregation takes on the personality of its pastor in good ways and bad ways.

JDale

 

[standingfirminChrist]

THe passage I've highlighted is the one that stands out to me. The Pastor isn't to rule as a dictator. Period. He has authority, he has oversight -- but the WORD of GOD is the ultimate authority to the believer.

David Guzik says it this way:

Nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock: Shepherds should not do their job as lords, because the sheep do not belong to them. The sheep are entrusted to them. Instead, shepherds are to serve by being examples, not dictators.... Nor as being lords shows that in the mind of Peter, shepherds had significant authority in the early church. If the office of shepherd was so powerless that a shepherd didn’t rule and lead, then there was little potential for being lords. But because Peter gives this warning, it shows there was the potential for lording over.... The sobering fact is that pastors are examples to the flock, whether they intend to be or not. It is interesting to see how a congregation takes on the personality of its pastor in good ways and bad ways.

JDale

So David Guzik's analysis does away with reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

If a pastor does not rebuke as the Word of God commands, he is not much of a pastor. He is not showing love to the flock.

 

[EdSutton]

Romans 13:1 clearly states that the powers that be are ordained by God. God gives the pastors certain authority, or power. So, they indeed are ordained by God.

To say the least, you have a rather novel interpretation of Rom. 13:1, but I guess that is possible when any verse is taken out of context. That passage in context is referring to civil government, according to every interpretation I've ever heard, and I agree. Look at verse six. Since when does the church collect taxes?

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. (Rom. 13:1-7, NKJV)

And I disagree that 'pastor' is a "church office', in the first place, as I have stated many times before on this board. It is a spiritual gift, and is to be exercised at the discretion of the "elders", who are the ones who are to feed the flock. Have you ever noticed that elders is always plural when referring to a church, in Scripture? Maybe that keeps any one person from becoming some "Big Behuna", just maybe, in the church.

Christ is the head of the head of the church. I'm pretty sure He did not delegate that authority to any of us.

Paul never claimed eldership, although he claimed to be both an apostle and a deacon, and Peter, the one who was goven the "keys to the kingdom of heaven", said he was a "co-presbyter", literally, in his epistle, not even claiming his apostleship, in the context, for that was also a spiritual gift, just like that of pastor. But claiming the spiritual gift, as opposed to making it an office doesn't give the same ability to 'lord something over the flock', now does it?

Ed

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Telling a person they are to be in the Sanctuary is not lording over them, else the author of Hebrews would have been contradicting himself when he wrote that we are to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

And yes, missing one service can be seen as forsaking the assembly. Just as that one instance when the disciples were said to have 'forsook Him and fled.'

 

[EdSutton]

How do we encourage without badgering them?

[FONT=verdana,arial]

Ed[/FONT]

 

[webdog]

3 weeks???

By that time, the person can have built up a hatred for such an uncaring Church that it does not call or visit for a long period.

I had a visitation committee at my last pastorate and at least one member of the committee was either calling or visiting no later than the second day after the first absence of the congregant.

I would have lasted exactly 2 days in your church. I missed this past Sunday because of a loooong night with the little one. Church isn't work where I have to "call off" if I'm not going to be there. If somebody called me Tuesday asking why I wasn't in church I would have probably told them I don't need another earthly boss or father.

 

[tinytim]

3 weeks???

By that time, the person can have built up a hatred for such an uncaring Church that it does not call or visit for a long period.

I had a visitation committee at my last pastorate and at least one member of the committee was either calling or visiting no later than the second day after the first absence of the congregant.

Yeah, I am not a baby sitter.. I am a Pastor..
If I have to go around and cajole the members of the church to come to church each week, I would never get anything done...
If after 3 weeks, they know to expect a visit from me.
So far, there have only been a couple times I had to visit because of unfaithful attendance... Most of my visits are for other reasons.

And guess what, I have not lost one because I haven't visited them.

They know I expect them to be mature, bible reading adults, that must have a spiritual relationship with Christ.

If they are sick, they know they need to call me... I cannot read their minds... And they know this.
If someone is in the hospital, it is their responsibility to let me know... and they know this..
If they have a problem, they all feel free to approach me about it, and we will work it out.... because I am not a dictator, they feel they can tell me anything... (and they do!!)

They know what to expect...
I shared this short poem with our members the first month I was there, and I come back to it often.
This is what I expect of them... this is our motto...but I am not going to become a dictator about it....
BTW, I bolded the part that refers to babies that have to be pampered all the time....
Every Christian should live this way...

I am a soldier in the army of my God. The Lord Jesus Christ is my commanding officer. The Holy Bible is my code of conduct. Faith, prayer, and the Word are my weapons of warfare.
I have been taught by the Holy Spirit, trained by experience, tried by adversity, and tested by fire.
I am a volunteer in this army, and I am enlisted for eternity.
I will either retire in this army at the rapture or die in this army, but I will not get out, sell out, be talked out, or pushed out. I am faithful, reliable, capable and dependable.
If my God needs me, I am there. If He needs me in Sunday school, to teach the children, work with the youth, help adults or just sit and learn He can use me because I am there!
I am a soldier; I am not a baby. I do not need to be pampered, petted, primed up, pumped up, picked up, or pepped up. I am a soldier. No one has to call me, remind me, write me, visit me, entice me, or lure me. I am a soldier. I am not a wimp.
I am in place, saluting my King, obeying His orders, praising His name, and building His kingdom! No one has to send me flowers, gifts, food, cards, candy or give me handouts. I do not need to be cuddled, cradled, cared for or catered to. I am committed. I cannot have my feelings hurt bad enough to turn me around. I cannot be discouraged enough to turn me aside. I cannot lose enough to cause me to quit.
When Jesus called me into this army, I had nothing. If I end up with nothing, I will still come out ahead. I will win. My God has and will continue to supply all of my needs. I am more than a conqueror. I will always triumph. I can do all things through Christ. Devils cannot defeat me. People cannot disillusion me. Weather cannot weary me. Sickness cannot stop me. Battles cannot beat me. Money cannot buy me.
Governments cannot silence me and hell cannot handle me. I am a soldier. Even death cannot destroy me. For when my commander calls me from this battlefield, He will promote me to Captain and then allow me to rule with Him. I am a soldier in the army, and I am marching claiming victory. I will not give up. I will not turn around. I am a soldier, marching Heaven bound. Here I stand! I will not turn around. Will you stand with me? author unknown

 

[tinytim]

Telling a person they are to be in the Sanctuary is not lording over them, else the author of Hebrews would have been contradicting himself when he wrote that we are to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

And yes, missing one service can be seen as forsaking the assembly. Just as that one instance when the disciples were said to have 'forsook Him and fled.'

No it is not forsaking, or you would be forsaking your children if you didn't feed them one meal...

I am with webdog here, if someone visited me after my first absence, I would find another church.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

How do we encourage without badgering?

By being an example. You want your flock to show up? If you tell them they are to be there, you be there.

When they see a pastor 'laying out', they lay out.

 

[dan e.]

oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyy gooooooooooodneeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssss!

I've missed you standingfirm :1_grouphug:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No it is not forsaking, or you would be forsaking your children if you didn't feed them one meal...

I am with webdog here, if someone visited me after my first absence, I would find another church.

And if I was a member of your church and missed 3 weeks, that's nine services, before anyone came to my door, when they came I would tell them to remove my name from the membership as they were apparently not that concerned..

 

[dan e.]

Do you realize that a lot of churches don't even have visitation like that anymore?

I'm sticking to my guns.....I think this is more a generational or cultural issue.

The pilgrims weren't always right.

 

[rbell]

And if I was a member of your church and missed 3 weeks, that's nine services, before anyone came to my door, when they came I would tell them to remove my name from the membership as they were apparently not that concerned..

But......it's not about me....or is it?

 

[tinytim]

Do you call your pastor to let him know when something is wrong?
Are you that immature that your feelings would get hurt?
If someone calls, and needs me, I am there...
Or if I even hear from hearsay, that someone is hurting I am there...

They know that.

But if someone wants to get mad at the preacher and pout to another church because they failed to contact me when they needed me... well, goodbye... I am training disciples, not legalistic robots, that get their feelings hurt all the time....

This is the problem the previous generation left us pastors today... they babied their Christians.. and kept them babes.. .now we have to deal with it. It is time to grow up, and be a christian. We don't have time to go around and round up the Christians.. The members know they need to be there. And if there is a problem, they need to contact the pastor, or deacons and we will certainly help.

If you don't want to grow, I can't make you. God will deal with you.
And when He does, we will be there with open arms... Just like the father in the prodigal son parable...

This is why legalism produces babies, and grace produces disciples.

 

[tinytim]

But......it's not about me....or is it?

Yeah, it was that obvious to me too.. that is what legalism does.. it makes it all about themselves and not about God.

 

[tinytim]

One more thing, Christ even had to let some go that were only thinking about themselves....

And He didn't blink an eye... John 6:66

 

[underscoretim]

And if I was a member of your church and missed 3 weeks, that's nine services, before anyone came to my door, when they came I would tell them to remove my name from the membership as they were apparently not that concerned..

throwing a lot of stones boss

how many services have you missed? whats your excuse?
i go to a young church that has a lease on a building for sunday mornings only...
we meet in homes on wednesday nights. i dont get to go on wednesdays because of a previous work contract.
please tell me what to do.

~apparently lost in nc