RE: Contemporary Christian Music....

[Alliswell]

Fiery, your post was loading while mine was being typed.

Did you read the post about the Organ distracting someone from worship?

I am an organist, and believe me, there are people who do not consider that spiritual.

I believe it is as old as TubalCain's clan in Genesis and they were not of the Godly line of Seth!

I try not to do 'High Church', but heart music that the congregation knows the words to, and can worship with.

Shalom

Alli

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by Alliswell:

In my opinion not at all, Grizzly. I am an old timer but I would so much rather see a teenager singing an upbeat 'Amazing Grace' with all their hearts and energy, than to see this sullen degenerated look that is trying to take over the angry young generation!

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom

Alle

Well put, Alle!
Did the beat ruin the song? No, I have always believed that the words to a song are much stronger than the beat to the song. CCM is there for people like you and me, people that desire to please God, but the taste in music is not old hymns, which I do enjoy singing, or pure instrumental, but something that you and I can tap our foot to!

That's just my opinion, though!

~Teresa~

 

[A Fiery Fundamentalist]

I am a Baptist, not an Episcopalian. As a Baptist, I do not particularly enjoy having the "High Church" label slapped on me. I am a traditionalist, NOT a ritualist, although some seem to consider it one and the same, and it can be if one is not careful. But a contemporary worship service can be just as ritualistic and liturgical, if not moreso.
For one thing, it is not for us to conform to the ways of the world. I John 2:15 says, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." That pertains to the field of music also. While you may completely disagree with the statement I am about to make, but I believe that, when you carry the reasoning used by many to justify CCM in churches to its logical end, then you might as well open up a "Christian" strip joint. And believe me, the distractions there would be just about as distracting, though in a different way, as at a "Christian" CCM concert. Cry blasphemy if you like, but I strongly believe it to be the truth. And I do not think that many of you who like CCM are of the devil.

 

[Molly]

Agreed.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Alliswell:

Christians have always taken worldly things, raised them from the mire, and given them back to the Lord where they belong.

Shalom

Alle

"Raised them from the mire" is the key phrase. That takes more than slapping spiritual words to a sensual tune.

 

[Aaron]

BTW, Welcome, Grizzly660 and A Fiery Fundamentalist!

 

[Brett Valentine]

Alliswell brings up an important point. While there are those who ligitimately find, say, drums, guitars, piano, organ, instruments, more contemporary forms of music, (insert yours here), there is no universal standard among the varying groups.

For those who find the CCM genre to be worldly and distracting, but love a good hymn done by a more classical orchestra, there are those who will consider THAT to be too worldly and distracting and require (and restrict)instrumentation solely to organ, and there are those who go even farther and require the unaccompanied voice for true, pure worship.

So to that last group, ANY instrumentation is wrong, and the rest of us find ourselves on the otherside of thie line together. . .

So in practice, it seems that the principle is universal, but the application is personal.

Brett

P.S. One of the most uplifting CCM songs I know: For the Sake of the Call" by Steven Curtis Chapman. Here's the chorus:

". . .We will abandon it all, for the sake of the call.

No other reason at all, but the sake of The Call.

Wholly devoted to live and to die for the sake of The Call. . ."

[ September 13, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Brett Valentine ]

 

[Alliswell]

Fiery, I hate labels and I used the label 'high church' and truly apologize if you took my comment as criticism of you!

What I meant by that was just formal music that our country church would not relate to. One of my favorite young pastors is also a talented instrumetalist and can make Bach sing with joy, but, though I enjoy it, our people wouldn't.

I don't want to be like David's wife Michael, daughter of King Saul who despised his worship!

We will celebrate our 61st wedding anniversary on the 27th so I could be a crabby old lady and say we never did it that way and it's wrong, but I have seen the true worship on the faces of teens doing, say Amazing Grace, in an upbeat style, and furthermore, I see their lives as they witness and love other young people to Jesus.

Psalms 100 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all you lands. Serve the Lord with gladness; come before His presence with singing!

The bagpipe rendition of Amazing Grace is very touching for funerals but is not the joyful noise the psalmist is seeking!!

I do understand your concern about some of the dancing and mindless lyrics of some so called Christian music.

Shalom

Alli

 

[Grizzly660]

Fiery,
You stated, "...when you carry the reasoning used by many to justify CCM in churches to its logical end, then you might as well open up a "Christian" strip joint."

Well...I sincerely disagree, but let's carry out the reasoning by many to discredit CCM: The music itself is intrinsically evil or "of the devil."
What's evil about it, that the notes and rhythm patterns are similar or identical to those played in the world? That would mean that we couldn't use any of the notes or rhythm patterns that comprise worldly songs; In other words MUSIC would be removed from Church all together. That doesn't make any sense, does it? That would be like saying that ACDC's songs are mostly in the key of F, so we can't sing any Hymns in F. (Don't forget that your favorite Hymns derived their music from Taverns and were shaped through history by the Blues and Slave-songs.)

Our logical criteria boils down to preference. Let's apply Biblical criteria to the music we listen to. Psalms 66, 81, 95, 98 and 100 say that it must be "joyful." These scriptures also claim that this "noise" that we make must be directed to The Lord. (By this standard, many Hymns would be removed from our assemblies.) These scriptures also encourage the use of wind, string and percussive instruments. Why, what(words) and to Who we sing is the key to unlocking what God desires. What Glorifies him will have the why, what and who all in line with his Word. The music isn't even an issue.

Now, you can't tell me that a sleepy-eyed church singing "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me..." monotone and half-bored is preferred by God over an energetic, drumset and guitar-accompanied rendition of the same song, where the Church claps and taps their foot or lifts their hands and praises God. In the same vein, if organ music is your "cup of tea" and you can sing the song with joy, to the Lord...Keep it up!

Music for the sake of music is worthless and hollow, no matter what label you put on it, but music for the glory of God is honorable and pleasing in God's eyes. IMO

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Grizzly660:
I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing!
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?

I have heard the tavern story, but have my doubts...I just can't imagine Hyfrydol or Slane being used in a tavern

If I find the tavern they are used at I will pick up there more in the taxi One of these days I'll look it up.

Although I'm an old rocker (slowly learning better ), I don't think Amazing Grace is the song to be doing it to. Based on the description given I think I would have headed for the door.

The worst I have ever heard Amazing Grace sound was at an "Alphabet Soup" Church (AOG/CLC/ETC) one night. They played it to tune of House Of The Rising Sun, for a minute I thought it was The Animals themselves playing. YUCK! What a slaughter. I didn't ask later wether it was pre-arranged, or if someone up the front noticed people sitting down in the Church or something, but after they finished that they did the first verse again a cappella in the original tune.

I must admit when I hear Christians praising God a cappella I have to consider trading in my guitars and joining the "no instruments" side

Oh, P.S. to the House Of The Rising Sun story. For years mum has told me the story of my brother singing Isaac Watts' "Alas And Did My Saviour Bleed" to that tune at a "down and out" mens group when he was 14. A couple of years ago I had had enough of hearing about it and wanted in on the action, so I got together with him and did it at Church, with just myself playing acoustic guitar softly. heh heh and to cut a long story short its times like that I think about staying on the "instruments side of the force"

Pete

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by A Fiery Fundamentalist:

Your beat did indeed ruin the song by diverting attention away from the message to the groovy, cool, sensual beat.

Were you there or did I miss something?

Mike

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Grizzly660:
Hey, sorry for joining the frey so late....

I've heard that today's current Hymns were placed to the music of tavern songs so that recent converts would be farmiliar with the music.
Makes sense to me, but I was wondering if anyone has any evidence of this. Anyone?

Hey, Grizz,

The only one I know of for sure is the childrens' song, "Jesus Loves the Little Children", which is taken from an Irish rebel tune called, "God Sve Ireland" and goes:

God save Ireland
Say the heroes
God save Ireland
Say we all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
For what matter when
For Ireland dear we fall

Or, if you're an Eagles fan:

"We're all part of Andy's army
We love all our boys in green
(or, "We're on our way to the final game")
And we'll really shake 'em up
When we win Lombardi's Cup (yes, we know it's not a "cup")
For Philly has the finest football team"

There's also a Flyers' version but you get the idea.

Also, I'm a drummer and a group of young adults played Amazing Grace in a new way the other day. We made it 4/4 time and put a "Rock beat" to it.
Wow! It rocked but still kept God's Grace Amazing!
What do you say about that? Did we de-sanctify the song or ruin it with a sinful beat?
Thanks.

No, I think it's great.

My pastor plays guitar, too and often sits in with us.

One of our favorite things to do is to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of the Eagles' "Peaceful, Easy, Feelin'"

The way we do it, the verses are the traditional words to Amazing Grace with the chorus being:

"Now, I got a peaceful, easy feelin
'Cause I know You won't let me down
Now that You've set me on solid ground"

It's been a while so I'm a little shaky on the words to the bridge, but I think it's:

"Oh, Lord, You search my heart and know me
You are the lover of my soul
By Your cross You have redeemed me
By Your grace I am made whole"

It's really pretty and it's nice to shake things up once in a while.

Hymns, pretty as they are, are not scripture.

They're just the words of men and if you have a different take on the songs, go for it.

Mike

PS.

Another great way to do Amazing Grace is to the tune of the Hollies' "Bus Stop".

[ September 17, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

[A Fiery Fundamentalist]

Grizzly, you said, "What's evil about it, that the notes and rhythm patterns are similar or identical to those played in the world? That would mean that we couldn't use any of the notes or rhythm patterns that comprise worldly songs; In other words MUSIC would be removed from Church all together. That doesn't make any sense, does it?" In all Christian charity, you do not make sense! You are saying that the notes and rhythms in the world's songs of today are the SAME as the hymns? I doubt that your knowledge of music is truly that deficient. Trust me, I am a musician myself, and I know that you are dead wrong. I do not intend to make this post tedious by giving a three-hour lecture on musical theory.

"(Don't forget that your favorite Hymns derived their music from Taverns...) Admittedly, Charles Wesley's original tune for "Jesus, Lover of My Soul" was derived from an English tavern tune. However, your statement is totally absurd. For one thing, how do you know what my favourite hymns are? I do not recall posting my favourite hymns. Do you recall Fanny Crosby? She wrote over 5000 hymns and, to the best of my recollection, she composed many of her hymn tunes herself. The others were written by recognized devout Christians who sent their tunes to her so that she could write lyrics for them. Here is a challenge for you: post a substantially-sized list of hymns that you say were derived from tavern tunes. I will see if any of my favourite hymns are among them.

"Our logical criteria boils down to preference. Let's apply Biblical criteria to the music we listen to. Psalms 66, 81, 95, 98 and 100 say that it must be "joyful." These scriptures also claim that this "noise" that we make must be directed to The Lord. (By this standard, many Hymns would be removed from our assemblies.)" You seem to have fallen for the CCM world's claim that most of the hymns do not speak to God and should thus be ruled out of modern worship. I can go through any given Fundamentalist hymnal and give you a LONG list of hymns that address God directly. I can also go through a good-sized "Praise & Worship" songbook and give you an even longer list of songs that do NOT address God. I agree with your line of reasoning not in application to the hymns, but to the fact that those CCM songs should be removed from our worship. The hymns that do not address God still bring glory to Him and are, in that way, "unto Him." Most of the traditional churches I know sing their hymns joyfully, but without the sensuality that marks your style of worship. I will close this post now, as I believe that I have covered your other remarks as well.

 

[Grizzly660]

Fiery,
Let me further clarify: Notes are notes and Rhythm is rhythm. A note or rhythm or tempo cannot be definitively declared "evil." Given the disagreements among many well-intended Christians, it is not clear at what point the combination of those notes and rhytms becomes "evil" if they do at all (and I say they do not.)

I apologize for writing "your" but you know I was speaking in generalities.

I agree that some CCM does not meet up to scriptural criteria, but some of "your style of worship" would be too.

We can't call something "evil" if God doesn't, especially if it's not "sin" and my intentions are to glorify God. If singing a Michael W. Smith song is a vehicle for me to worship, then what's it matter if the song has a fast tempo, has electric guitars and a drum-set?

We won't agree on this issue and that's absolutely fine. We do agree, however, that God is worthy of ALL praise and honor. That's priority over all this, as I'm sure you'll agree.

God Bless!

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Has anyone talked about convictions? One may havea conviction on such a topic as music, now, does that mean that it's a sin? No, it simply means that it is a conviction of yours for whatever reason, but that does not mean that everyone else will have that conviction, so we can't neccessarily say something is a sin if it is a matter of the heart, now can we?

~Teresa~

 

[Bobster]

[Dear Sir,

You did not specify Baptist as your religion in your profile. This forum is for baptists only. Please review the Baptist Board Posting Rules.

http://www.baptistboard.com/postingrules.html

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[A Fiery Fundamentalist]

[Fiery,

Since I deleted your "foe's" posts, I couldn't very well leave your response to him.

Just wouldn't be fair.

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Bobster]

[Please see the edition of your first post.

Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron]

[ September 18, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[A Fiery Fundamentalist]

Originally posted by Grizzly660:
We won't agree on this issue and that's absolutely fine.

I am well aware of the distinct possibility that you mentioned above. I am grateful to learn that you are not trying to force your views on me; that is not the case with nearly all of my Christian friends and relatives on a variety of topics. I apologize if, in defending my convictions rather passionately as I usually do, I come across as trying to force my views on you.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi all! According to Psalm 33: 3, the best praise music will be NEW songs, NEW styles/renditions performed LOUD and NOISY. They may also be performed on guitars (Psalm 33: 2 "ten string instruments"). It is obvious that loud, noisy guitars, playing NEW music describes exactly what some call "contemporary" Christian Rock, Rap, and Pop music. "Old Time" songs such as the ones that many seem to prefer are NOT new (unless performed in new styles). "Old Time" musical styles are NOT new either.

latterrain77

"Sing unto him a NEW song; play skilfully with a LOUD NOISE" (Psalm 33: 3) - the emphasis is mine

[ September 20, 2002, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]