Reasoning Together

[Two Wings]

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

I've never really studied on this ... but I DO seek to consume The Word ... which is Jesus' flesh which dwelt among us, and was in the Beginning.

Do Catholics believe this understanding is necessary to have eternal life? Or is Jesus saying those who have eternal life will eat my flesh/drink my blood?

The latter returns me to the consumption of The Word, which John tells us is Jesus flesh ... consume THAT ... not some metaphysical incarnation of the body of Christ which hasn't been on the planet in almost 2000 years.

 

[AustinC]

I read the Bible and I just don't ever see that the church at Rome is the one and only church that can and will rightly divide the truth.
History shows us that the church at Rome fell into apostasy and has never repented.

 

[Two Wings]

Jesus said man cannot live on bread/water alone ... but on the Word of God.

 

[Cathode]

I've never really studied on this ... but I DO seek to consume The Word ... which is Jesus' flesh which dwelt among us, and was in the Beginning.

Do Catholics believe this understanding is necessary to have eternal life? Or is Jesus saying those who have eternal life will eat my flesh/drink my blood?

The latter returns me to the consumption of The Word, which John tells us is Jesus flesh ... consume THAT ... not some metaphysical incarnation of the body of Christ which hasn't been on the planet in almost 2000 years.

Catholics believe the Eucharist is Jesus Himself.

Catholics believe Jesus flesh is real food and his blood is real drink. That his flesh and blood give eternal life to our flesh and blood by eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

“ Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you”

Jesus is God and no words go out from him without being fulfilled.

“ Take this all of you and eat it, this is My Body “

“ Take this all of you and drink of it, this is the Cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting Covenant “

This is the Covenant feast that requires the garment of Faith, Faith in Jesus Words.
If you a struggling with the word, make an act of faith and abandonment like Peter.
“ Lord to whom shall we go, YOU have the WORDS of everlasting Life. “

Jesus said his flesh was real food and blood real drink, not symbolic food and symbolic drink.

Believe Jesus words brother, you will not believe in vain.

 

[Two Wings]

Believe Jesus words brother, you will not believe in vain.

I do ... but I simply don't receive the same message you do.

In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God ... and the Word was God. John 1

that's Jesus.

"If you abide in Me, and My Word abides in you ..." John 15:7

e.g. Consume The Word.

I thank you for your encouragement. I do not consider this a salvation issue so it's well with my soul.

Administration question, though ... who is qualified to make the elements turn into Jesus' body? Can anyone do it? Anytime? Anywhere?

What establishes the qualification if not just anyone can do it?

I know how I would answer ... but I'm not declaring the elements to be Jesus' body, either, so I'm presuming this is something I can't just decide to do in my home with the brethren? Yes/No. Thanks again.

 

[Cathode]

I do ... but I simply don't receive the same message you do.

In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God ... and the Word was God. John 1

that's Jesus.

"If you abide in Me, and My Word abides in you ..." John 15:7

e.g. Consume The Word.

Catholics believe that if you truly believe Jesus words, you will obey and eat his flesh and drink his blood. If you do not believe Jesus words, you will not eat his flesh and drink his blood. The words of Christ lead people to Covenant with Him in the Eucharist.

“39You search the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.”

Only those who believe Jesus words will eat his flesh and drink his blood in the Eucharist, many will make their theological excuses and justifications for not attending this feast, but others will be invited to take their place.

Scripture only leads to eternal life if it is truly believed then acted on, so reading scripture not believing and not acting on it, means people aren’t abiding in the word.
People who refuse to believe that Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink, have no garment of faith to attend the feast.

I thank you for your encouragement. I do not consider this a salvation issue so it's well with my soul.

Administration question, though ... who is qualified to make the elements turn into Jesus' body? Can anyone do it? Anytime? Anywhere?

What establishes the qualification if not just anyone can do it?

I know how I would answer ... but I'm not declaring the elements to be Jesus' body, either, so I'm presuming this is something I can't just decide to do in my home with the brethren? Yes/No. Thanks again.

A valid Eucharist can be celebrated by the ancient Apostolic churches, Catholic and Orthodox Churches, perhaps Coptic as well, I’d have to look into it.
Outside that others do not have the authority or intention to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Two Wings]

Scripture only leads to eternal life if it is truly believed then acted on, so reading scripture not believing and not acting on it, means people aren’t abiding in the word.
People who refuse to believe that Jesus flesh is real food and blood real drink, have no garment of faith to attend the feast.

Cathode, that is a brilliant way to say ... 'if you don't believe this, you're going to hell."

Which is not what The Word teaches ... repent, believe, confess ... there's no requirement to eat the flesh. See the criminal on the cross. he didn't eat anything but according to Jesus, he was saved. he was a new creation.

So it sounds like you (Catholics) consider this to be a salvation issue.

A valid Eucharist can be celebrated by the ancient Apostolic churches, Catholic and Orthodox Churches, perhaps Coptic as well, I’d have to look into it.
Outside that others do not have the authority or intention to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

See ... this is where we also have a disagreement. I don't have papers and I don't need shots. I approach God through the Blood of The Lamb and His Amazing Grace, not any other man regardless of how adorned his outfit happens to be.

The ordinance of The Lord's Supper isn't something only a Pastor can administer only in the church house. "This do in remembrance of Me" not "gather ye in the orthodox place of worship under the authority of the pope to eat my flesh and drink my blood"

Sorry brother ... it doesn't meet with sound doctrine. it meets with religious execution of a ritual a man contrived many centuries ago. I don't mean to offend, but this is the Truth.

The Gospel is so simple a child can understand it, for it requires a child like faith, as well. it doesn't require a seminary degree. I don't seek to disrespect those who have graduated from a seminary, but that is an institution of man ... and we're all equal at the foot of the cross. you, me, my pastor, your pope.

I've enjoyed the discussion and appreciate your continued offerings. Consume the Word. Thy Word is Truth ... In the Beginning was The Word, and the Word was with God ... and the Word was God. Abiding in Jesus means consuming the Word ... which IS Jesus.

We'll understand it better by and by.

 

[Cathode]

Cathode, that is a brilliant way to say ... 'if you don't believe this, you're going to hell."

Which is not what The Word teaches ... repent, believe, confess ... there's no requirement to eat the flesh. See the criminal on the cross. he didn't eat anything but according to Jesus, he was saved. he was a new creation.

So it sounds like you (Catholics) consider this to be a salvation issue.

I thought you already said you believe Jesus words, it’s only when people don’t believe Jesus words that problems start.

See ... this is where we also have a disagreement. I don't have papers and I don't need shots. I approach God through the Blood of The Lamb and His Amazing Grace, not any other man regardless of how adorned his outfit happens to be.

The ordinance of The Lord's Supper isn't something only a Pastor can administer only in the church house. "This do in remembrance of Me" not "gather ye in the orthodox place of worship under the authority of the pope to eat my flesh and drink my blood"

Sorry brother ... it doesn't meet with sound doctrine. it meets with religious execution of a ritual a man contrived many centuries ago. I don't mean to offend, but this is the Truth.

The Gospel is so simple a child can understand it, for it requires a child like faith, as well. it doesn't require a seminary degree. I don't seek to disrespect those who have graduated from a seminary, but that is an institution of man ... and we're all equal at the foot of the cross. you, me, my pastor, your pope.

I've enjoyed the discussion and appreciate your continued offerings. Consume the Word. Thy Word is Truth ... In the Beginning was The Word, and the Word was with God ... and the Word was God. Abiding in Jesus means consuming the Word ... which IS Jesus.

We'll understand it better by and by.

It is a ritual Jesus founded at the last Supper.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well for Catholics the Eucharist is far more than symbolic I grant you.

For a Catholic the only real reason to go to Church is receive Jesus Himself in the Eucharist.

Every post you have made is pure error.
Sincere catholics like yourself have drank the koolaid of the corrupt roman church

 

[Cathode]

I don’t know how Jesus does it, I only believe it because Jesus said it.

What need is there of Faith, if we only believe what we understand, or that can be rationalised.

“ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away”

It seems to me the Jesus words are the only sure thing.

If at Judgement I am wrong about this and Jesus asks why I believed that His flesh was real food and blood real drink. I will point to the Scripture to His own words.

If I am right, I don’t know what scripture others will point to, to say why they didn’t believe.

I think believing and not believing Jesus words is a salvation issue.

““For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

It’s really important to believe Jesus, it’s the purpose he was sent here, for us to believe.

 

[Two Wings]

I thought you already said you believe Jesus words,

Ah ... correction ...

Cathode, that is a brilliant way to say ... 'if you don't believe this, you're going to hell."

*"if you don't hold this understanding, you're going to hell."

It is a ritual Jesus founded at the last Supper.

I won't quibble over the term ritual as applied to what Jesus modeled ... but it wasn't held in a fancy church house administered by specific people with specific clothing holding specific titles. It was in "the upper room" ... now it was administered by The Authority, but He has given ALL of us this authority. He didn't reserve the right to administer communion/The Lord's Supper exclusively to priests/pastors as occupations --- as I said before, we are all royal priests thanks to Jesus. (we are the kings over whom HE is King .... e.g. King of kings, those kings are not CEOs, nation presidents, et al)

 

[Cathode]

Ah ... correction ...



*"if you don't hold this understanding, you're going to hell."

No, it’s believing Jesus that is the salvation issue. I don’t know if you believe Jesus words in your heart, I can only trust that you say you believe his words.

I won't quibble over the term ritual as applied to what Jesus modeled ... but it wasn't held in a fancy church house administered by specific people with specific clothing holding specific titles. It was in "the upper room" ... now it was administered by The Authority, but He has given ALL of us this authority. He didn't reserve the right to administer communion/The Lord's Supper exclusively to priests/pastors as occupations --- as I said before, we are all royal priests thanks to Jesus. (we are the kings over whom HE is King .... e.g. King of kings, those kings are not CEOs, nation presidents, et al)

Well Protestantism denies that Jesus comes in the Flesh anyway in the Eucharist, even told me that their ritual is only bread and wine and not the Flesh and Blood of Jesus.
That ritual doesn’t need any authority or claim any, and their intent is not to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ anyway.
So it doesn’t take any faith at all to believe that, it’s only symbolic to them.

I does however take huge Faith to believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, to sustain us with His very self, the new mana from Heaven.
A Catholic would see a symbolic bread and wine ritual as just play acting, like eating the husks in some far off place. We are only interested if the Eucharist is Jesus Himself come in the flesh in Covenant exchange of persons.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him”

It is the wedding feast, like Covenant of marriage exchange of persons, where two become One.
It is the communion of Jesus Himself and His bride the Church.

 

[DaveXR650]

I'm guessing that this thread moved in this direction because of the OP's reference to people misinterpreting scripture. Then Cathode comes in with the "private interpretation" talking point. I want to say that there are individuals on this site who do fall into that and come up with strange doctrines of their own inventions. Protestants do not teach private interpretation which is why you have preaching, church assemblies, bible studies, theological systems and such. Private use of scripture in a devotional sense is encouraged. This is a huge blessing for us living in a day with easy access to God's word. People died at the hands of Roman Catholics trying to get translations of scripture to average folks. If you want to look at the value of Catholic interpretation of scripture read Luther's 95 Theses yourself. At that point Luther is still a Catholic but most of it is attacking the practice of indulgences, a bizarre cynical attempt at extorting money from ignorant people. No one in history has butchered scriptural interpretation more than Catholic clergy. Whether it's the practice of forbidding clergy to marry which then either fills the church with homosexuals or causes needless temptation for the straight priests or the constantly evolving ceremonies and rituals. The way they do the Lord's supper is completely made up. Jesus specifically said the words were spiritual. I don't see any Catholics cutting off various body parts because they caused them to sin. Do you? There is something unique in Roman Catholicism. It is the only "Christian" sect where the deeper you are in it the less chance you are saved.

 

[AustinC]

No, it’s believing Jesus that is the salvation issue. I don’t know if you believe Jesus words in your heart, I can only trust that you say you believe his words.



Well Protestantism denies that Jesus comes in the Flesh anyway in the Eucharist, even told me that their ritual is only bread and wine and not the Flesh and Blood of Jesus.
That ritual doesn’t need any authority or claim any, and their intent is not to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ anyway.
So it doesn’t take any faith at all to believe that, it’s only symbolic to them.

I does however take huge Faith to believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, to sustain us with His very self, the new mana from Heaven.
A Catholic would see a symbolic bread and wine ritual as just play acting, like eating the husks in some far off place. We are only interested if the Eucharist is Jesus Himself come in the flesh in Covenant exchange of persons.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him”

It is the wedding feast, like Covenant of marriage exchange of persons, where two become One.
It is the communion of Jesus Himself and His bride the Church.

Do you understand the passover meal? Have you ever ate the Seder? If you have, you realize the symbolism. You realize that it is done as a means of remembrance.
Now, understand that Jesus was performing the Seder in the upper room. But, he changed up the symbolism by declaring himself to be the lamb who was slain. He expressed that the disciples must eat his flesh (the Lamb of God) and drink his blood (of atonement) not as real flesh and blood, but as symbolic flesh and blood.

Had Jesus been speaking literally, the disciples would have recoiled at the breaking of the law in drinking blood (human blood) and eating raw, uncooked flesh. Clearly they recognized the symbolism within the Seder and saw what Jesus was doing.

The church at Rome got it wrong.

 

[Cathode]

Do you understand the passover meal? Have you ever ate the Seder? If you have, you realize the symbolism. You realize that it is done as a means of remembrance.
Now, understand that Jesus was performing the Seder in the upper room. But, he changed up the symbolism by declaring himself to be the lamb who was slain. He expressed that the disciples must eat his flesh (the Lamb of God) and drink his blood (of atonement) not as real flesh and blood, but as symbolic flesh and blood.

Jesus said his flesh was real food and his blood real drink, not symbolic food and symbolic drink.
The Israelites ate the Passover Lamb.
Jews don’t celebrate many Passover’s, the Passover to them is One Night. Why is this night different from all other nights? It was on THIS night that God delivered the people of Israel from bondage.
This means that all Jews are present at the same one Passover throughout time.

When Jesus said “ This is my Body “ it became His Body and when He said “ this is the Cup of my Blood “ it became His blood.
No words of Christ can go out and not be fulfilled. He could not declare it his body and it not be so. What Jesus says is so, even if we do not understand, His Words are reality.

Had Jesus been speaking literally, the disciples would have recoiled at the breaking of the law in drinking blood (human blood) and eating raw, uncooked flesh. Clearly they recognized the symbolism within the Seder and saw what Jesus was doing.

Many of Jesus followers did recoil from Jesus words and no longer followed him. “ Saying How can this man give us his flesh to eat”

It's a shocking teaching that Jesus had to ask his disciples “ Will you also leave me “.

It was then that Peter said “ Lord whom to shall we go, you have Words of everlasting Life” He made a supernatural act of Faith in Jesus Words. I advise people who are struggling with the Word to do the same.

It was only latter at the Last Supper that Jesus revealed how this was to take place.

“
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas did not believe Jesus flesh was real food and blood real drink, and when did he betray Jesus? At the Last Supper. Not believing and eating the body and blood leads to destruction.

So instead of eating the flesh and drinking the blood and abiding in Jesus and Jesus in him, “ It was then that Satan entered him “

Receiving the Eucharist without believing or unworthily brings a horrific curse in the Covenant.

Only those who believe can eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, it brings Eternal Life to those who believe and death to those who don’t.

Only a supernatural Faith granted by the Father will make one believe.

 

[Two Wings]

A Catholic would see a symbolic bread and wine ritual as just play acting,

perhaps ... .but then Catholics AFAIK do not engage in the ordnance of full immersion baptism either ... like Jesus did. Establishing the SYMBOLIC dying to self, being buried with Christ ... raised to walk in NEWness (the new creation) of life.

The words, specifically, aren't "magic" what matters is what is in one's heart ... just like surrendering to Jesus the first time for salvation.

The two ordnances are there as opportunity to remember our First Love. To keep "killing my old man" ... crucifying the flesh ... taking-up my cross and following Jesus.

Dave and AustinC have great posts here on this. All the best, brother. Jesus Saves ... not rituals.

 

[Cathode]

Dave and AustinC have great posts here on this. All the best, brother. Jesus Saves ... not rituals.

“ From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.“ John 6:66

We see here in scripture a point of departure from Jesus Words and the boundary Faith and unbelief.
These did not sit at the Last Supper and eat Jesus Body and drink His Blood, with the exception of Judas who ate and drank his destruction.

There are many who do not believe Jesus comes in flesh, but Jesus own Words stand for all time and Eternity, and we believe them in Faith.

“ Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my Words will never pass away”

Believe.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus said his flesh was real food and his blood real drink, not symbolic food and symbolic drink.
The Israelites ate the Passover Lamb.
Jews don’t celebrate many Passover’s, the Passover to them is One Night. Why is this night different from all other nights? It was on THIS night that God delivered the people of Israel from bondage.
This means that all Jews are present at the same one Passover throughout time.

When Jesus said “ This is my Body “ it became His Body and when He said “ this is the Cup of my Blood “ it became His blood.
No words of Christ can go out and not be fulfilled. He could not declare it his body and it not be so. What Jesus says is so, even if we do not understand, His Words are reality.



Many of Jesus followers did recoil from Jesus words and no longer followed him. “ Saying How can this man give us his flesh to eat”

It's a shocking teaching that Jesus had to ask his disciples “ Will you also leave me “.

It was then that Peter said “ Lord whom to shall we go, you have Words of everlasting Life” He made a supernatural act of Faith in Jesus Words. I advise people who are struggling with the Word to do the same.

It was only latter at the Last Supper that Jesus revealed how this was to take place.

“
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas did not believe Jesus flesh was real food and blood real drink, and when did he betray Jesus? At the Last Supper. Not believing and eating the body and blood leads to destruction.

So instead of eating the flesh and drinking the blood and abiding in Jesus and Jesus in him, “ It was then that Satan entered him “

Receiving the Eucharist without believing or unworthily brings a horrific curse in the Covenant.

Only those who believe can eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, it brings Eternal Life to those who believe and death to those who don’t.

Only a supernatural Faith granted by the Father will make one believe.

I know what you have been taught in your traditions.
I know that unregenerate Israel recoiled because they took Jesus literally.
I know that Jesus, at the last supper, was leading the seder meal of Passover, a meal that all Jews still keep to this day.
I know that Jesus tells us to remember, just as the Jews remember Passover and symbolically represent it in the Seder meal.
So the body of Christ (God's children worldwide) remember the Lamb of God who was slain to atone for our sin and give us life.
I know that Hebrews is very, very clear that Jesus died once and for all our sins. Continual need for daily sacrifice and atonement is not needed because Jesus perfectly accomplished this.
Read Romans 9. Sadly, Rome has reverted back to a lesser system that is no longer viable. The New Covenant made Romes ceremonial priesthood useless.
Read Hebrew 10 and see the finality of Jesus one time sacrifice. Do not fall back to an old and dead system of works, which your church has done.
Cathode, may God's Holy Word enlighten you so you see the falsity of your Roman traditions.

 

[Two Wings]

“ From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.“ John 6:66

We see here in scripture a point of departure from Jesus Words and the boundary Faith and unbelief.
These did not sit at the Last Supper and eat Jesus Body and drink His Blood, with the exception of Judas who ate and drank his destruction.

There are many who do not believe Jesus comes in flesh, but Jesus own Words stand for all time and Eternity, and we believe them in Faith.

“ Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my Words will never pass away”

Believe.

I do believe. I do not hold the same understanding.

nor do you about my understanding of baptism.

 

[Cathode]

I do believe. I do not hold the same understanding.

nor do you about my understanding of baptism.

I know what you have been taught in your traditions.
I know that unregenerate Israel recoiled because they took Jesus literally.
I know that Jesus, at the last supper, was leading the seder meal of Passover, a meal that all Jews still keep to this day.
I know that Jesus tells us to remember, just as the Jews remember Passover and symbolically represent it in the Seder meal.
So the body of Christ (God's children worldwide) remember the Lamb of God who was slain to atone for our sin and give us life.
I know that Hebrews is very, very clear that Jesus died once and for all our sins. Continual need for daily sacrifice and atonement is not needed because Jesus perfectly accomplished this.
Read Romans 9. Sadly, Rome has reverted back to a lesser system that is no longer viable. The New Covenant made Romes ceremonial priesthood useless.
Read Hebrew 10 and see the finality of Jesus one time sacrifice. Do not fall back to an old and dead system of works, which your church has done.
Cathode, may God's Holy Word enlighten you so you see the falsity of your Roman traditions.

I wasn’t talking from Tradition, I’m just encouraging dudes to believe the scripture and Jesus own words.
Put it to prayer, I’ll be praying for you all, because it’s important to support brothers in prayer, belief and encouragement. It’s scriptural.