Excellent. And I would add 2 Tim. 4:1, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom."
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Reasons for the 2nd Coming of Christ
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
- Status
JOJ said;
Itried to clarify it a bit, with a small response you your 70ad comment [which seemed to be directed to full preterists}
Yes, I do believe in the blessed hope of the second coming, albeit I see it as the Last day.
I was responding to your comment here...in red;
I am just offering a view that is not the same as yours, similar but different.
Itried to clarify it a bit, with a small response you your 70ad comment [which seemed to be directed to full preterists}
,
Yes, I do believe in the blessed hope of the second coming, albeit I see it as the Last day.
No...I am not a full preterist. I think they go a step or two beyond the scripture.
Yes...that is what I thought I was doing...however when you remarked about 70 ad...I sought to offer you some food for thought from the scriptures themselves....John....I know what you sort of hold to more or less, but I think I can provoke some thought on some ideas we have discussed in times past, and here again...
I was responding to your comment here...in red;
I do not see God glorified in a "spiritual" coming in AD 70. I see Titus, the Roman general, being glorified.
I responded to this here;
If these judgments were the Curses of Deut28-33 being brought upon national Israel
God would be glorified in keeping the promises of the Covenant....both blessing,[to the covenant keepers]
This would be the elect remnant and the gentiles forming the bride of Christ; as here
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hearunto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:
but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
from DEUT32;
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
If the blessing is to the elect remnant and believing gentiles to provoke them to jealousy.....The cursing is also part of how God will be glorified, both in 70ad, and the coming on the last day.
Does that clarify it?
The first such fulfillment of the covenant cursing was the destruction of the apostate theocracy....the final glorification will be at the White throne judgment at the second coming of the last day;
jn5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
jn6
9 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I see the final glorification and second coming as the last day.The rapture takes place at that time.....it is the last day...after which there are no more days....but rather the eternal state.
Last edited:
Sorry, but I don't buy that. You post did not mention anything about God receiving glory in connection with the 2nd Coming, in particular in AD 70. You did quote Heb. 2:7, which mentions Christ's glory, but you wrote nothing about it in regards to the 2nd Coming of Christ (purportedly in AD 70) or the coming of Titus.
I just tried to clarify it by adding the verses I think tie it together, I edited it in to clarify
So then, what is your point in regards to the 2nd Coming of Christ? I haven't figured it out yet.
Christ is also coming again to rule over the entire earth. Rev. 12:10 says, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ."
What you picture as yet future I see is already having begun now and will continue on until its consummation. The reference I gave the Hebrews chapter 2 is speaking about the Great Commission being given to redeemed men and women and it has begun at the first coming of Jesus. It will be consummated at the second coming
70 ad was a coming in the clouds....a coming in judgment,but not the second coming which will be at the last day.
Jesus will be glorified in the salvation of a multitude of sinners to the praise of His glorious grace,and also glorified in the damnation of a multitude of sinners to the praise of His glorious justice.
Okay, that's better. I can at least understand a partial preterist view such as yours.
So, was Christ glorified in an AD 70 coming?
Another purpose for the 2nd Coming of Christ is to put everything under the feet of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:28). This is, of course, a different way of saying He will rule as King during the Millennium.
I believe God is glorified in all His actions even His righteous judgments which the saints in Rev.19:1-4 all to a person praise Him for.
At the same time Jesus had just wept over Jerusalem because they would not come to Him...mt 23:37......so His full final warning to that generation was going to come upon that very generation.
Mt.24 was fulfilled at that time.
The coming in the clouds....the end of the Israelite kingdom ,the beginning of the Heavenly rule and reign...carrying out Mt. 28....all bring.glory to God.
Does not this then contend that all prophecy concerning the restoration of the nation of The Jews, and the physical reign of the messiah of both the OT and NT be seen as either fulfilled or spiritualized into some hyperbole or allegory?
No....most every postmill, or Amill person believes the scriptures in rom 11 indicate a possible revival among national physical Israel right before the very end.
The difference is that it is individual Israelites....not the physical nation rising up....
The NT. Israel is the Holy Nation....the Christian Israel both now and eternally
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1 Peter 2:9 KJV
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Or.....that the current rule and reign of King Jesus in the midst of His enemies as the church and kingdom spread worldwide right until the end.
We agree on the eternal state.....
you insert the 1000 yrs part way through this time since pentecost and the eternal state.
TC things it is after this time, but also before the eternal state...
The other two views see it...[the 1000yr period] happening now, right up until the last day.
Eschatology Chart
You left out that which the Scriptures state in the chart:Or.....that the current rule and reign of King Jesus in the midst of His enemies as the church and kingdom spread worldwide right until the end.
We agree on the eternal state.....
you insert the 1000 yrs part way through this time since pentecost and the eternal state.
TC things it is after this time, but also before the eternal state...
The other two views see it...[the 1000yr period] happening now, right up until the last day.
Eschatology Chart
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
See, the second resurrection occurs to begin the millennial reign.
NOT before the tribulation.
This is not a prevention of a rapture, but the Scripture is clear about the second coming by both label and event.
You are assuming the tribulation is future...I believe it has past.
It has been more than a literal thousand years since these saints were beheaded...so the term 1000yrs seems to be speaking of the whole period of time...
Okay, everyone, please don't sidetrack the thread. It's not about the details of the millennium or tribulation. It's strictly and narrowly about the 2nd Coming of Christ.
Does that not include the question of “when?”
You are assuming the tribulation is future...I believe it has past.
It has been more than a literal thousand years since these saints were beheaded...so the term 1000yrs seems to be speaking of the whole period of time...
Don’t think I mentioned anything about a Tribulation.
I was just showing specific verses concerning the second coming as it relates to a time line.
A timeline not included on the copy of the chart you posted.
The one above at least shows the comparison in two views more accurately.
As a believer in the Scriptures, would it not such a statement giving such specifics as to both time and event oblige folks conform their thinking?
- Status