Reasons for the 2nd Coming of Christ

[John of Japan]

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I have 5 minutes left before my ride comes - and much more that I wanted to write. The one thread is closed so I will write it here.

John of J, I dont know why you think I am against the Gfreek lexicons. I had some well-worn and marked ones. I have studied it for many years. Both in and out of school( BJU).You misunderstand me. I assume you are tryin gto make me out as some sort of "just me and my Bible" kind of yahoo. I just don't agree with your application (many times) of the Greek.

Ooh, well maybe it's because of statements to me like "this same lexical desperation of yours" in your last thread. Or maybe it was the time back in the day when you told me I depended too much on the Greek. Or maybe it's that every time I mention the Greek you discount or ignore it. Apparently to you any mention of the Greek that contradicts your preterism is ergo, wrong.

 

[John of Japan]

I suppose you have not read Josephus. Or that you have not considered the application of Luke 17:37:

"And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.”"

The disaster at Jerusalem spread ripple-like throughout the Roman Empire, wherever there were Jews. They never again had their former power to harass true believers. Thousands, not only lost their political immunity, nut were massacred in places like Antioch, Caesarea, Alexandria, Cyrene. Certainly Thessalonica was also affected.

However if you want Biblical proof that the Thessalonians were punished it will not forthcoming, because all of the Bible was written before AD70.

You specifically quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 about the promised vengeance of God upon their enemies. (1) You did not prove that Paul meant the Jews by that passage. (2) You do not prove that God meant a general judgement rather than one specific to Jews in Thessalonica. (3) You mention Josephus (which I have) but not where Josephus mentioned Thessalonica. (It's not in the index of my set.) (4) You have not made any specific connection (only a general one) between the events of AD 70 and Thessalonica.

Frankly, you've proven nothing, zilch, nada, 何もない.

 

[John of Japan]

Lest we get too negative (in a preterist way) here on this thread, another positive result of the 2nd Coming is in 1 Cor. 15:28--"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." It will be glorious when Christ has everything under His feet, and rules everything and everybody. I can't wait for that day!

 

[percho]

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
“Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. Acts 15:7,8,14 NJJV

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:4,5 KJV

Are the we and us of Eph the same as the them and us of Acts 15? A people for the name of God?

Eph 1:9 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Acts 15:16 states; After this, I will return. Is this the second coming? I believe it to be, so.

What will take place? Tabernacle of David to be set up. And then? Made known unto us.

Acts 15:17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’[fn]

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Just what is the purpose of his coming? 70 AD?

 

[David Kent]

Just what is the purpose of his coming? 70 AD?

Judgement on those who crucified Him.

Or was it the father?

• Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
• 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
• 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
• 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
• 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
• 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
• 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
• 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
• 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• 43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• 45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[prophecy70]

Just what is the purpose of his coming? 70 AD?

Exactly what David Said. Judgment.

The bible was written not to us first. Think about how it would be thought of to them. Im sure none of them were thinking anything was to happen 2000 years from when Jesus was speaking.

I am not a full preterist, although, I do enjoy the argument from them. I do see a final Judgment happening, but I could be convinced that AD 70 fulfilled all things. Asterisktom I do want to talk to you once you get more time.

as of now I see Jesus of having the kingdom now, until everything is under his feet, and then a final Judgment, and thats the purpose of the "coming of Jesus in final judgement"

What would not convince me is everything being thrown into the future.

The people there at that time cared about old covenant Israel and the persecution from them! not us living in the 21st century. Its still a 1st century document written to 1st century people.
It still has relevance to us, the prophecy of the 1st coming is past but still means something even to us.

Matthew 16:28 Truly I say to you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

[percho]

Judgement on those who crucified Him.

Or was it the father?

• Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
• 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
• 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
• 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
• 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
• 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
• 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
• 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
• 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• 43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• 44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• 45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

I think I will go with, The Father.

 

[percho]

I think I will go with, The Father.

Actually I think He sent, Titus just as He sent, Nebuchadnezzar.

I do not think the Son of Man came in the clouds, that year.

 

[prophecy70]

Actually I think He sent, Titus just as He sent, Nebuchadnezzar.

I do not think the Son of Man came in the clouds, that year.

Yes the army against Jerusalem was the "coming".

Isaiah 19:1
God rides a swift cloud.

Now God didn't literally do that either.

 

[John of Japan]

Once again, preterists present no positive good from the supposed 2nd Coming of Christ in AD 70.

Here is another positive reason/result of Christ's physical coming in the Bible: For Christ to confirm us to the end.

"6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 1:6-8).

Nothing even remotely similar to this and the other positive Scriptures posted on this thread happened in AD 70. Preterism is such a negative doctrine. I look forward with eagerness and joy to the future, physical 2nd Coming of Christ to set up His earthly Kingdom. He will do so much good for us believers and all of mankind at that time.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes the army against Jerusalem was the "coming".

Isaiah 19:1
God rides a swift cloud.

Now God didn't literally do that either.

Are you aware of what anthropomorphism is in Scripture?

Part of the ridiculousness of preterism is that they don't understand figurative language. They quote figures of speech, which any sane literalist interprets as figures of speech, then say, "Aha. Look at this. Do you interpret this literally?" This has happened over and over on the BB.

 

[percho]

Once again, preterists present no positive good from the supposed 2nd Coming of Christ in AD 70.

Here is another positive reason/result of Christ's physical coming in the Bible: For Christ to confirm us to the end.

"6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 1:6-8).

Nothing even remotely similar to this and the other positive Scriptures posted on this thread happened in AD 70. Preterism is such a negative doctrine. I look forward with eagerness and joy to the future, physical 2nd Coming of Christ to set up His earthly Kingdom. He will do so much good for us believers and all of mankind at that time.

John you put something in this post that I believe to be the most overlooked.

So much good related to all of mankind.

The elect are elected for the purpose of God, relative to the earthly rule of Jesus Christ and their ruling with him, relative to all of mankind.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23

? Will the redemption of the body, take place at the moment of, the coming of the Lord and will that be at the reality,fulfillment, of the shadow, the feast of turmpets?

Will the deceiver, the devil, at that time be unable to deceive and will mankind then begin to, Know the Lord and or as Paul put it, be Known by the Lord?

What is the purpose of the coming of the Lord? Kings and priests? Of what? What do priests do?

 

[John of Japan]

John you put something in this post that I believe to be the most overlooked.

So much good related to all of mankind.

The elect are elected for the purpose of God, relative to the earthly rule of Jesus Christ and their ruling with him, relative to all of mankind.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23

? Will the redemption of the body, take place at the moment of, the coming of the Lord and will that be at the reality,fulfillment, of the shadow, the feast of turmpets?

Will the deceiver, the devil, at that time be unable to deceive and will mankind then begin to, Know the Lord and or as Paul put it, be Known by the Lord?

What is the purpose of the coming of the Lord? Kings and priests? Of what? What do priests do?

Excellent thoughts, Percho, perhaps worthy of another thread. Thank you. Don't have time to comment more right now.

 

[asterisktom]

Ooh, well maybe it's because of statements to me like "this same lexical desperation of yours" in your last thread. Or maybe it was the time back in the day when you told me I depended too much on the Greek. Or maybe it's that every time I mention the Greek you discount or ignore it. Apparently to you any mention of the Greek that contradicts your preterism is ergo, wrong.

It is actually possible to focus so much on the Greek (or the Hebrew) that one loses sight of the big picture. Not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[asterisktom]

The Philippians were 'eagerly wait[ing] for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ' (Philippians 3:20-21) not because they were being persecuted by non-existent Jews but because they were looking forward to the Resurrection when Christ 'will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.'

I am sorry that I only have a little time for short comments here and there. But might I suggest that "body", being in the singular (as it often is in the NT) refers to the corporate body per Eph. 4:4-6.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[TCassidy]

It is actually possible to focus so much on the Greek (or the Hebrew) that one loses sight of the big picture.

How does being fluent in Hebrew and/or Greek cause one to "lose sight of the big picture?"

Does being fluent in German or French cause one to lose sight of the big picture?

Is this some sort of new "English Only" nonsense like KJVOism?

 

[asterisktom]

How does being fluent in Hebrew and/or Greek cause one to "lose sight of the big picture?"

Does being fluent in German or French cause one to lose sight of the big picture?

Is this some sort of new "English Only" nonsense like KJVOism?

I don't take seriously anything you say. Not after your imagining that preterism is docetism "raising it's ugly head" (words to that effect).

 

[agedman]

Lest we get too negative (in a preterist way) here on this thread, another positive result of the 2nd Coming is in 1 Cor. 15:28--"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." It will be glorious when Christ has everything under His feet, and rules everything and everybody. I can't wait for that day!

What is your thinking of the last three words in the quoted verse?

I heard a preacher who waxed long about how the words meant that every person and thing would become as Eden with God “all (and) in all.”

Then i’ve heard it presented that the submission of Christ to the Father exalts The Father as the God (of) all (and) in (in authority over) all.

In my own thinking, because the presentation of Christ as both the total subjugator of all nature, all political, all Spiritual, all ..., then it follows that the submission to the Father is that of bringing honor and recognition of authority over “all in all” no matter what the “all.”

That hasn’t taken place, but will.

To me that is the most comforting blessing of the promised 2nd coming! God will be seen by all as the absolute authority and control of all.

 

[agedman]

I don't take seriously anything you say. Not after your imagining that preterism is docetism "raising it's ugly head" (words to that effect).

Is it not a docetism in the thinking that there was a “spiritual” return in 70 AD?

Is not the basic question of Christ having or not having a body, or in some manner can be separated from the body, a concern of the docetism?

I realize that much more of that thinking includes other aspects as far as his earthly form being spiritual and only appeared physical.

But as it concerns 70 AD, would it not be considered?

 

[John of Japan]

It is actually possible to focus so much on the Greek (or the Hebrew) that one loses sight of the big picture. Not seeing the forest for the trees.

Unless the "big picture" is exegesis--and it is--in which case the original languages are a huge boon.