Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture

[DHK]

What a useless thread. You could have written and showed scripture that supports a Pre-Trib rapture. If you can show it, I will consider it.

In the scriptures you always see the persecution of Christians, and then afterward the day of wrath when Jesus comes.

So why hasn't Christ come yet? Logic fails you.
First Peter was written to suffering Christians; persecuted Christians; Christ didn't come.
The Book of Hebrews was written to persecuted Jewish believers; Christ didn't come.
The book of Acts tells of great persecutions under the wrath of Saul, the Sanhedrin at various times, and the Roman government at the death of Paul; Christ didn't come.
The persecution of Christians doesn't bring the Coming of Christ. That is failed logic. The persecution of Christians has been happening throughout every century. It is expected of all Christians.

Matthew 24:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

First Christians shall be rounded up and killed for Jesus's sake. The gospel will be preached in all the world. Yes, this has been happening for 2000 years. But it will intensify. [/quote]
--Nothing new here. I gave examples how it has been happening for 2,000 years and has been intensifying. There has been more Christians persecuted in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined and the rate is not declining. So what is your point. Christ still has not come. You only confirm a pre-trib rapture.

21

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The great tribulation shall be far worse, it will be the worst time since the beginning of the world or ever shall be. But look, Christians are still in the world and being killed. In fact, Jesus said this great tribulation will be shortened for the "elect's sake". This tribulation shall be shortened so that not all believers shall be killed off.

"Great tribulation" is not "The Great Tribulation" which lasts for a specific period of time--seven years. Christians have been going through great tribulation for centuries. If you had read my post carefully you would have realized that. Yes, it will become so great, as great as it was in the days of Noah, that if Christ will need to intervene by taking his bride out of this world. That is the rapture being spoke of.

Has Jesus come yet? NOPE. That happens AFTER this great tribulation.

No man knows the day nor the hour thereof. Why are you so presumptuous?

29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It seems absolutely clear, it is AFTER the great tribulation that Jesus returns.

And who do the angels gather up? The ELECT! So believers are still in the world, they have not been raptured out yet.

Jesus comes in all his glory after the Tribulation. That is not what is described in 1Thes.4:13-18. After the Tribulation "the elect" referred to is Israel. "So then all Israel shall be saved." The shall turn to him whom they have pierced. He is coming to defeat the enemies of the Jews. That is what the Battle of Armageddon is all about.

Verse 29 descibes both when Jesus comes and raptures out the elect, and when the "day of wrath" begins. It is true, Christians will not go through this "day of wrath". But the day of wrath is not the same as the tribulation or the great tribulation.

The Day of Wrath is when Jesus comes for His elect--the Jews and is a Day of Judgment on the enemies of the Jews. The bride will have already been raptured. There is no judgment on the bride. Why should there be?

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And they cursed God and repented not of their sins.
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--These are not believers. This is a picture of the unsaved. Believers have no fear of Jesus Christ who shed his blood for them. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Now the unbelievers fear Him. Now at the end of the Tribulation they finally realize their fate, yet they still will not repent. There are no believers here.

Here is the sun being darkened, the moon turning to blood, and the stars falling as was described in Matthew 24:29. This is when Jesus returns with his angels and gathers the elect.

It is now that the great day of God's wrath begins.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is not a picture of the believers in Christ. Believers are not afraid of the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. They are not present in the Tribulation. There are only unbelievers, unrepentant who fear the judgment of Jesus Christ. Who else would fear a lamb??

See, all those verses the Evangelist showed all concerned the "day of wrath", not the tribulation. The day of wrath begins AFTER the tribulation when Jesus returns with his angels to take the elect out. Then the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, and the stars will fall. Then will begin the "day of wrath".

Christians will not go through the "day of wrath".

Christians are not appointed to wrath. That statement is stated more than once in Scripture. The Scripture you just posted emphatically demonstrates it. The believers are not the kings of the earth hiding from the Lamb of God, and His wrath.
What a far-fetched idea you have.
Christ is about to come in his glory to save the Jews from their enemies.
Then He will set up His Kingdom. The believers in Christ have already been in heaven. The marriage of the lamb and the marriage feast have already taken place.

 

[Winman]

So why hasn't Christ come yet? Logic fails you.

What are you even talking about?

First Peter was written to suffering Christians; persecuted Christians; Christ didn't come.

OK.

The Book of Hebrews was written to persecuted Jewish believers; Christ didn't come.

OK.

The book of Acts tells of great persecutions under the wrath of Saul, the Sanhedrin at various times, and the Roman government at the death of Paul; Christ didn't come.

You are wrong here, Jesus did come when Saul was persecuting the church, he came directly to Saul himself, and this is when Saul was converted and became Paul. I have often wondered if this was not a fulfillment of Matthew 10:23;

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

When Saul was persecuting the early Christians, they were fleeing Jerusalem into other cities and towns throughout Israel. Jesus basically stopped this persecution when he converted Saul (Paul).

This might simply be a figure of what is to come in the future, but Jesus did come before the new Christians had gone over all the cities of Israel.

The persecution of Christians doesn't bring the Coming of Christ. That is failed logic. The persecution of Christians has been happening throughout every century. It is expected of all Christians.

And you are wrong, Jesus said the days of this great tribulation shall be shortened for the explicit purpose that the elect not be totally wiped out.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Just as Jesus halted the persecution (for the most part) of Christians when he appeared to Saul (Paul), Jesus is going to come before all the elect are wiped out in the future.

--Nothing new here. I gave examples how it has been happening for 2,000 years and has been intensifying. There has been more Christians persecuted in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined and the rate is not declining. So what is your point. Christ still has not come. You only confirm a pre-trib rapture.

OK, we are agreed, there has been a tribulation and Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years. But Jesus then spoke of a "great tribulation" the likes of which have never been seen before, or will ever be seen again.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This will be a great intensification of persecution against Christians like as never seen before. There will be wholesale slaughter of Christians everywhere.
In fact, it is the next verse (22) that tells us these days shall be shortened "for the elects sake".

But Jesus has not been shown to have come yet in Matthew 24 when we are told all these things. So Christians are going to go through the tribulation.

"Great tribulation" is not "The Great Tribulation" which lasts for a specific period of time--seven years. Christians have been going through great tribulation for centuries. If you had read my post carefully you would have realized that. Yes, it will become so great, as great as it was in the days of Noah, that if Christ will need to intervene by taking his bride out of this world. That is the rapture being spoke of.

No time is mentioned in Matthew 24, so you can hardly rule out this is not the 7 year tribulation.

No man knows the day nor the hour thereof. Why are you so presumptuous?

Where did I claim to know the day and hour Jesus would return? Man, you just go off on a tangent don't you? You put all kinds of words in people's mouths that they never said.

It would be helpful if you just read what people actually say, and not add all this imaginary stuff you think in your head.

Jesus comes in all his glory after the Tribulation. That is not what is described in 1Thes.4:13-18. After the Tribulation "the elect" referred to is Israel. "So then all Israel shall be saved." The shall turn to him whom they have pierced. He is coming to defeat the enemies of the Jews. That is what the Battle of Armageddon is all about.

I don't disagree with this, but I believe Christians outside Israel will be persecuted also.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The Day of Wrath is when Jesus comes for His elect--the Jews and is a Day of Judgment on the enemies of the Jews. The bride will have already been raptured. There is no judgment on the bride. Why should there be?

Correct, the day of wrath is when Jesus comes to collect the elect "from the four winds", not Israel only.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You see, Jesus is not speaking of Israel only, but of the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And they cursed God and repented not of their sins.
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
--These are not believers. This is a picture of the unsaved. Believers have no fear of Jesus Christ who shed his blood for them. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Now the unbelievers fear Him. Now at the end of the Tribulation they finally realize their fate, yet they still will not repent. There are no believers here.

This is not a picture of the believers in Christ. Believers are not afraid of the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. They are not present in the Tribulation. There are only unbelievers, unrepentant who fear the judgment of Jesus Christ. Who else would fear a lamb??

Christians are not appointed to wrath. That statement is stated more than once in Scripture. The Scripture you just posted emphatically demonstrates it. The believers are not the kings of the earth hiding from the Lamb of God, and His wrath.
What a far-fetched idea you have.
Christ is about to come in his glory to save the Jews from their enemies.
Then He will set up His Kingdom. The believers in Christ have already been in heaven. The marriage of the lamb and the marriage feast have already taken place.

You are not paying attention again. Christians WILL NOT have to endure the "day of wrath" The great tribulation and the day of wrath are not the same thing.

Christians will go through the great tribulation.

Christians WILL NOT go through the "day of wrath".

Now, read those carefully until you understand what I am saying and quit listening to all sorts of wild thoughts in your head that I NEVER said.

 

[beameup]

Israel's clock stopped when they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus the Messiah! That was clearly demonstrated by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD!

That contradicts what your Apostle Paul said:

2Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I see you "conveniently" left out the companion verse to 2 Tim 3:16.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

"Rightly dividing" what? The Old Testament was "the scriptures" Paul was referring to. Scripture written to someone else (ie: Jews) is still profitable to learn from.

If Daniel's "weeks" are contiguous, then AD 40 would have been the end for Israel. Obviously, that didn't happen and hasn't happened.
Thirty years or three thousand years make no difference to God, it's still a GAP. The False Christ will come, and Israel will "receive" him.

 

[go2church]

You all seem to be having a ball si I'll let you at it. As an aside dividing means handling. Carry on

 

[OldRegular]

I see you "conveniently" left out the companion verse to 2 Tim 3:16.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

"Rightly dividing" what? The Old Testament was "the scriptures" Paul was referring to. Scripture written to someone else (ie: Jews) is still profitable to learn from.

Did you have an epiphany and get that straight from the Apostle Paul or did you just make it up?

If Daniel's "weeks" are contiguous, then AD 40 would have been the end for Israel. Obviously, that didn't happen and hasn't happened.

That is not what Jesus the Messiah told the Jews:

Matthew 21:42, 43
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

There is no Scripture that revokes that promise of God. It is remarkable how those of dispensational persuasion ignore the Word of God!

Thirty years or three thousand years make no difference to God, it's still a GAP. The False Christ will come, and Israel will "receive" him.

The Apostle John says there were antichrists in his day. Is that part of Scripture you ignore?

 

[DHK]

What are you even talking about?

Read your own posts. Your logic dictated that of a necessity "great tribulation" would precipitate the Coming of Christ. That hasn't happened. Perhaps you are a false prophet. Better chance however, that your theology is all messed up.

You are wrong here, Jesus did come when Saul was persecuting the church, he came directly to Saul himself, and this is when Saul was converted and became Paul. I have often wondered if this was not a fulfillment of Matthew 10:23;

Pure nonsense. How many times did Christ come then? He not only appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus but also when he was in Corinth, and again when he was on the way to Rome.
He also spoke directly to Ananias.
Christ appeared to John on the Isle of Patmos before John was shown all the events described in heaven.
Christ appeared to Stephen in a most outstanding way as he was being stoned.
So all these appearances were a fulfillment of just one verse?
You have an odd way of interpreting Scripture.

Mat 10:23

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

When Saul was persecuting the early Christians, they were fleeing Jerusalem into other cities and towns throughout Israel. Jesus basically stopped this persecution when he converted Saul (Paul).

And what happened when Stephen was martyred?
It was after the martyrdom of Stephen that the persecution started.

This might simply be a figure of what is to come in the future, but Jesus did come before the new Christians had gone over all the cities of Israel.

No, he did not. He died, was buried, arose from the dead, 40 days later ascended into heaven. He has not come back since then. You are deluded if you think he has. If you He has come back prove it. Give your evidence. An appearance to Paul is not Christ coming back--obviously!!

And you are wrong, Jesus said the days of this great tribulation shall be shortened for the explicit purpose that the elect not be totally wiped out.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Just as Jesus halted the persecution (for the most part) of Christians when he appeared to Saul (Paul), Jesus is going to come before all the elect are wiped out in the future.

You don't know what you are talking about. Have you cared to look at the context?
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Also in the same context consider verse 16:
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
I don't believe any of the Christians in general, not me or any others intend to be in Judea and fleeing into the mountains. Neither do I expect to be traveling on the Sabbath day, necessarily. And if I am traveling in winter, what difference does it make. Where I come from it is winter most of the year! :laugh:
Obviously you have taken these verses way out of contest. They are applicable to the Jews, the nation of Israel. Yes, they apply to the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the seven year period of the Great Tribulation when Christ comes for the Jews. The context makes that clear. I have no intention of visiting Israel. I won't be there.

OK, we are agreed, there has been a tribulation and Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years. But Jesus then spoke of a "great tribulation" the likes of which have never been seen before, or will ever be seen again.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This will be a great intensification of persecution against Christians like as never seen before. There will be wholesale slaughter of Christians everywhere.
In fact, it is the next verse (22) that tells us these days shall be shortened "for the elects sake".

The elect are the Jews. The context shows that it is the tribulation to come.

But Jesus has not been shown to have come yet in Matthew 24 when we are told all these things. So Christians are going to go through the tribulation.

You have given your opinion--no evidence.

No time is mentioned in Matthew 24, so you can hardly rule out this is not the 7 year tribulation.

No man knows the day nor the hour. Of course the time is not given.
But events are given.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--This is the Second Coming, when Christ comes for the Jews at the end of the Tribulation. He comes in all of his glory with the holy angels.
Now go back and read 1Thes.4:13-18. There is no great glory, no angels, no coming to earth. He comes to the clouds, not visibly; coming for the saints; not for those that mourn. The two passages cannot be reconciled. They are two very different events separated by seven years of Tribulation.

 

[DHK]

I don't disagree with this, but I believe Christians outside Israel will be persecuted also.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

They always have been. You don't have the context correct.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
--The Great Tribulation hasn't started yet. The above is leading up to it. It is just the beginning.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
--This will come before the Tribulation.
"Then shall the end come.
The gospel is not going to be preached to all the nations during The Tribulation, but before it starts.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
--This is referring to the Tribulation, in fact, it is mid-way through the seven year period when the Temple is desecrated. Daniel 9 also speaks of the same event.

Correct, the day of wrath is when Jesus comes to collect the elect "from the four winds", not Israel only.

No it refers only to Israel.

Mat 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You see, Jesus is not speaking of Israel only, but of the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jews from all over the world have been returning to their homeland ever since 1948, and in even greater numbers more recently. This is a fulfillment of prophecy and another sign of many that Christ is coming soon. He is coming for his elect--the Jews.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--The tribes that were scattered throughout the world, are the tribes of Israel, now returning to their homeland.

You are not paying attention again. Christians WILL NOT have to endure the "day of wrath" The great tribulation and the day of wrath are not the same thing.

Yes, you are right. Much of the time I don't pay attention to nonsense.
In the OT the day of wrath and the Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble) are often interchangeable. Who is not paying attention?

Christians will go through the great tribulation.

Christians WILL NOT go through the "day of wrath".

A contradiction. Christians will not go through either. They won't be there. They will be raptured before the Tribulation even begins or before the Antichrist and False Prophet are revealed.

Now, read those carefully until you understand what I am saying and quit listening to all sorts of wild thoughts in your head that I NEVER said.

I follow and read my Bible carefully. The opinions of men do not hold much weight with me.

 

[Winman]

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

The word "therefore" connects vs. 15 and the verses that follow it with vss. 4-14. Jesus is simply giving more detail.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Again, the word "therefore" in vs. 15 connects it to verses 4-14 that came before. The word "then" in verses 16 and 21 show this is all speaking of one event.

Verses 15-21 are simply adding detail to verses 4-14.

Jesus tells us of the "great tribulation" in vs. 21. He then tells us in vs. 22 that those days will be shortened for the elect's sake. So the elect will still be in the world being persecuted.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

After this tribulation is when the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall, this is when Jesus comes and his angels gather the elect from the "four winds" and from "one end of heaven to the other", so this is speaking of the elect all over the world, not just Jews in Israel.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You simply are not correct. Jesus is going to come immediately after the tribulation and gather the elect from all over the earth, not the Jews only.

 

[OldRegular]

So why hasn't Christ come yet? Logic fails you.
First Peter was written to suffering Christians; persecuted Christians; Christ didn't come.
The Book of Hebrews was written to persecuted Jewish believers; Christ didn't come.
The book of Acts tells of great persecutions under the wrath of Saul, the Sanhedrin at various times, and the Roman government at the death of Paul; Christ didn't come.
The persecution of Christians doesn't bring the Coming of Christ. That is failed logic. The persecution of Christians has been happening throughout every century. It is expected of all Christians.

You make a great case showing why the pre-trib removal of the Church is false doctrine!

 

[evangelist6589]

You make a great case showing why the pre-trib removal of the Church is false doctrine!

Read this article I wrote a few years back.

A defense of PRETRIBULATIONISM

 

[DHK]

You make a great case showing why the pre-trib removal of the Church is false doctrine!

Either it is a very good case for the immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ, or a good argument for a denial of the return of Christ.
Which do you believe?

 

[JamesL]

So why hasn't Christ come yet? Logic fails you.
First Peter was written to suffering Christians; persecuted Christians; Christ didn't come.
The Book of Hebrews was written to persecuted Jewish believers; Christ didn't come.
The book of Acts tells of great persecutions under the wrath of Saul, the Sanhedrin at various times, and the Roman government at the death of Paul; Christ didn't come.
The persecution of Christians doesn't bring the Coming of Christ. That is failed logic. The persecution of Christians has been happening throughout every century. It is expected of all Christians.

You make a great case showing why the pre-trib removal of the Church is false doctrine!

Exactly, O.R.

I tried to show him how a removal of believers before the Tribulation would be taking us away from what we've been called for - 1Peter 2:21 says we have been called for this very purpose, to suffer, since Christ himself suffered for us.

 

[DHK]

Exactly, O.R.

I tried to show him how a removal of believers before the Tribulation would be taking us away from what we've been called for - 1Peter 2:21 says we have been called for this very purpose, to suffer, since Christ himself suffered for us.

You are so out in left field with this verse that it is not funny any more; it is truly sad.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example, that you should follow his steps,

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Bible teaches that it is the will of God for ALL Christians of ALL ages to suffer. That is part of the believer's life.
Peter was writing to suffering Christians. His theme was enduring suffering, not enduring the Tribulation.

Daniel's 70th Week, The Great Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, etc., all have one thing in common--God's wrath poured out on the unbelievers of this world during a seven year period. It is HIS wrath poured out on this world.
The believers will not be present. It is a time when the Jews will turn to Him. They are the ones known as "the elect" in the passages that refer to this time. The believers will not be present.

 

[OldRegular]

Either it is a very good case for the immanent return of the Lord Jesus Christ, or a good argument for a denial of the return of Christ.
Which do you believe?

You ask a stupid question. You answer it!

 

[OldRegular]

Daniel's 70th Week, The Great Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, etc., all have one thing in common--God's wrath poured out on the unbelievers of this world during a seven year period. It is HIS wrath poured out on this world.
The believers will not be present. It is a time when the Jews will turn to Him. They are the ones known as "the elect" in the passages that refer to this time. The believers will not be present.

1. Daniels 70th week occurred ~2000 years ago when the Jews conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus the Messiah!
2. There has always been tribulation, sometimes great tribulation, for the Christians, just as is happening in Islamic countries, particularly Iraq.
3. God's wrath will be poured out on the unbelievers at the White Throne Judgment.
4. From time to time throughout history God has executed His wrath against the unbeliever.
5. The elect are the elect, those chosen to salvation, to eternal life in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
6. The true believers will be present until Jesus Christ returns in "power and great glory" at the end of time as we know it.
7. And that is what the Bible teaches!

 

[DHK]

You ask a stupid question. You answer it!

Actually I can't remember exactly where you stand.
There are some full preterists here that do deny the second coming of Christ. Many of your beliefs are similar to theirs, and the way that you interpret the Bible is also similar.

 

[DHK]

1. Daniels 70th week occurred ~2000 years ago when the Jews conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus the Messiah!
2. There has always been tribulation, sometimes great tribulation, for the Christians, just as is happening in Islamic countries, particularly Iraq.
3. God's wrath will be poured out on the unbelievers at the White Throne Judgment.
4. From time to time throughout history God has executed His wrath against the unbeliever.
5. The elect are the elect, those chosen to salvation, to eternal life in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.
6. The true believers will be present until Jesus Christ returns in "power and great glory" at the end of time as we know it.
7. And that is what the Bible teaches!

It is not what the Bible teaches. But it is easy to see how one can deny truth so easily if they fail to embrace the truth of dispensations. Even the ECF's believed in Chiliasim. Most of them differentiated between a rapture and a Second Coming. They could see these truths, the very ones that you are denying.

 

[OldRegular]

Read this article I wrote a few years back.

A defense of PRETRIBULATIONISM

Consider the following Scripture; verse 52 appeared in your paper.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57-.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

You claim in your paper that you use the literal hermeneutic. So consider the following Scripture.


Revelation 8:2-5, KJV
2. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now we read that seven angels are given seven trumpets. The angels sound their trumpets, one after the other in turn. When the seventh and last trumpet is sounded what do we see happen.

Verse 15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now Verse 18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is obviously a picture of the return of Jesus Christ in Power and Great Glory. Verse 15 tell us, well you can read. Verse 18 tells us of the White Throne Judgment.

Paul has given us additional information about what happens to the believers at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

So you see there is no need for all this stuff about a pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. The Church snatched out. Seven years tribulation. 1000 year reign on earth with humans mingling with God in His Glory.

Scripture makes it much more straightforward: Jesus Christ returns, there is a general resurrection and judgment, Satan and his are cast into the Lake of Fire, those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed will enjoy life eternally in the New Heavens and Earth with the Triune God.

Praise God!

And all you need do is apply your literal hermeneutic!

 

[OldRegular]

It is not what the Bible teaches. But it is easy to see how one can deny truth so easily if they fail to embrace the truth of dispensations. Even the ECF's believed in Chiliasim. Most of them differentiated between a rapture and a Second Coming. They could see these truths, the very ones that you are denying.

I may deny certain people who do not understand Scripture but I never deny what the Bible teaches. Apparently truth is in the eye of the beholder and it appears your vision has been marred by false teaching!

 

[JamesL]

The believers will not be present. It is a time when the Jews will turn to Him. They are the ones known as "the elect" in the passages that refer to this time. The believers will not be present.

You keep saying it, but you haven't provided any scripture which plainly says believers will be raptured before the Tribulation

The only way you can draw that conclusion is if you have a preconceived notion of a PreTrib rapture.