Recognizing irregular church doctrines.

[AustinC]

https://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/224504.pdf

First Bap, Richmond is in the CBF

Thanks for the link. It seems like the church still baptizes by immersion, but accepts those into membership who have been baptized by sprinkling in a different tradition. I, personally, have no problem with that.

I do think there should be membership classes and confirmation before membership as well.

 

[AustinC]

robycop3 said:
To me, calvinism is the false belief that everyone's "fate" is pre=determined that no one can change it. If that were true, why preach or witness? Why have Bibles or churches ?

Why indeed

We preach and witness so that those who are predestined to eternal life may hear the gospel and believe. This is in alignment with Matthew 28 and Romans 10.

What is shocking is the underlying hatred that God, the Creator, should have any say in our destiny.

 

[Salty]

Thanks for the link. It seems like the church still baptizes by immersion, but accepts those into membership who have been baptized by sprinkling in a different tradition. I, personally, have no problem with that.

I do think there should be membership classes and confirmation before membership as well.

2) yes, I am all for membership classes

1) Our church would NOT accept someone who was sprinkled or poured.
Unless they have been properly immersed - no membership - and that includes those who beleive in Baptismal regenaration. - I would ask two questions: 1) " have you been immersed? 2) "Why were you immersed?"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thanks for the link. It seems like the church still baptizes by immersion, but accepts those into membership who have been baptized by sprinkling in a different tradition. I, personally, have no problem with that.

I do think there should be membership classes and confirmation before membership as well.

What do you mean by confirmation?

 

[AustinC]

What do you mean by confirmation?

We should catechize them and ensure they know the essential doctrines of grace before they are accepted into membership.

 

[robycop3]

We preach and witness so that those who are predestined to eternal life may hear the gospel and believe. This is in alignment with Matthew 28 and Romans 10.

What is shocking is the underlying hatred that God, the Creator, should have any say in our destiny.

Scripture is full of "whoevers",no "whoever if elect".

 

[Van]

The Spirit of God has never been said to 'baptise' anything or anyone, literally or figuratively.

This is not only an irregular teaching, but an accursed false Gospel.

No One, by The Holy Spirit, is said to be 'baptized' into Jesus Christ.

I know you won't believe it, but you have gotten these irregularities as a misinterpretation from somewhere and/ or someone.

Too bad.

Folks, note the denial but without reference to the scriptures that teach the opposite?

Please read Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:18, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We should catechize them and ensure they know the essential doctrines of grace before they are accepted into membership.

Why is that important & biblical? Since I was a RC for 32 years this just seems like one of their doctrines that they turned into a necessary sacrament (to get into heaven) and that’s not what most baptists would condone.

 

[Alan Gross]

Scripture is full of "whoevers",no "whoever if elect".

The "whoevers" are the Elect.

 

[AustinC]

Why is that important & biblical? Since I was a RC for 32 years this just seems like one of their doctrines that they turned into a necessary sacrament (to get into heaven) and that’s not what most baptists would condone.

Because we are the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) that mentors the next generation. Failure to catechize them in God's word is a failure on our part to "train up our children in the way they should go." (Proverbs 22:6)

I understand you are triggered by you past in the RCC, but that doesn't mean we aren't supposed to train our brothers and sisters.
If we don't train them, before membership, we are essentially opening a wide gate for wolves to enter the fold.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because we are the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) that mentors the next generation. Failure to catechize them in God's word is a failure on our part to "train up our children in the way they should go." (Proverbs 22:6)

I understand you are triggered by you past in the RCC, but that doesn't mean we aren't supposed to train our brothers and sisters.
If we don't train them, before membership, we are essentially opening a wide gate for wolves to enter the fold.

Key word.. “membership”… sounds more like Presby Covenant than Baptist

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is a church irregularity for them to not have
A MUTUAL WATCH OVER ONE ANOTHER,
AND THE CONDUCT WE ARE DIRECTED
TO PURSUE IN CASES OF DISORDER.

That would be Church Discipline.

This is Andrew Fuller, with a sympathizing Pastor's heart.

MANY Fine thoughts: Circular, 1799, Fuller on Church Discipline

(another fine, more modern, reference: https://pastortim.com/church-discipline/)

For example: "In the exercise of discipline it is necessary to distinguish between faults which are the consequence of sudden temptation, and such as are the result of premeditation and habit. The former requires a compassionate treatment, the latter a greater portion of severity."

"A DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL, OR ANY OF ITS LEADING DOCTRINES, is an object of Christian discipline.

"I would they were even cut off that trouble you."

- "I have a few things against thee, because thou hast them who hold the doctrine of Balaam - so hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate."

- "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

"In CASES OF NOTORIOUS AND COMPLICATED WICKEDNESS, it appears that in the primitive churches, *immediate exclusion was the consequence."

*Exclusion means 'put under church discipline'. They are still church members, under church discipline, i.e., not "excommunicated".

"We do not suppose, however, that every notorious fault requires immediate exclusion. The general rule given is that NOTORIOUS EVILS SHOULD MEET WITH A PUBLIC REBUKE.

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear," 1 Timothy v. 20

"There are also faults which do not come under the denomination of notorious sins, wherein directions are given for recovering the offenders WITHOUT ANY MENTION BEING MADE OF EXCLUSION, EITHER IMMEDIATE OR ULTIMATE".

"Finally, A watchful eye upon the state of the church, and of particular members, with a seasonable interposition, may do more towards the preservation of good order than all other things put together."

Fuller is the full on enemy of Monergism.

 

[AustinC]

Key word.. “membership”… sounds more like Presby Covenant than Baptist

Call it what you will, it's still the best way to ensure the flock knows the basics of the faith and it minimizes the wolves in the flock.

My church (Baptist) goes through the New City Catechism. Check it out. It's basic doctrine that any Baptist can uphold.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Call it what you will, it's still the best way to ensure the flock knows the basics of the faith and it minimizes the wolves in the flock.

My church (Baptist) goes through the New City Catechism. Check it out. It's basic doctrine that any Baptist can uphold.

No thanks….gave up catechism for Lent.

 

[Alan Gross]

I know you won't believe it, but you have gotten these irregularities as a misinterpretation from somewhere and/ or someone.

Too bad.

I WIN!

Ha Ha Ha!!!

I Win! I Win!

I told you you wouldn't believe it!

I win! I Win! I Win!

The Spirit of God has never been said to 'baptize' anything or anyone, literally or figuratively.

Jesus did the 'baptizing' with The Holy Spirit.

"In searching the Bible record we should note that the New Testament contains five mentions of the prophecy that our Lord would baptize with the Holy Ghost (Matthew 3: 11-12, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16-17, John 1:33, Acts 1:4-5).

"It is interesting to note that this prophecy is mentioned once in each of the historical books of the New Testament. (7) (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts)."

...

Matthew 3:11

11 I (John the Baptist) indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me (Jesus) is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (to those that were saved, John was saying Jesus would 'baptize' figuratively or Immerse His Church body at Jerusalem with The Anointing of The Shekinah Glory of The Holy Spirit on The Day of Pentecost),

and with fire* (to the lost, John was saying to believe the Gospel and be save and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, to show you are saved, or risk being 'baptized' figuratively or Immersed in The Lake of Fire, by Jesus:/ In both the later cases, of 'baptizing with The Holy Spirit and 'baptizing with fire'; Jesus is doing the baptizing; not the Holy Spirit.)

*Context of Jesus 'baptizing the lost with fire':

vs 7b; "who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

vs 8a; "Bring forth, therefore, fruits meet for repentance":

vs 10b: "therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit
is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

vs 11c: " he shall baptize you with ... fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor,
and gather his wheat into the garner;
but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The two 'baptisms' in the later part of Matthew 3:11 are Jesus figurately 'baptizing' His church with The Holy Spirit and Jesus figuratively 'baptizing' the lost "with fire" in Hell.

Jesus did the 'baptizing.'

In the first part of the verse, John said, 11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:", with literal water.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water.
...

Luke 3:16,

16 "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:"

Same as above.

The two 'baptisms' in the later part of Luke 3:16 are Jesus figurately 'baptizing' His church with The Holy Spirit and Jesus figuratively 'baptizing' the lost "with fire" in Hell.

Jesus would 'baptize' figuratively or Immerse His Church body at Jerusalem with The Anointing of The Shekinah Glory of The Holy Spirit on The Day of Pentecost.

Jesus was to do both these 'baptizings.' Not The Holy Spirit.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water. Luke 3:16a; "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water";
...

John 1:33

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

Same as above.

Jesus was to do the 'baptizing.'

Jesus would 'baptize' figuratively or Immerse His Church body at Jerusalem with The Anointing of The Shekinah Glory of The Holy Spirit on The Day of Pentecost.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water. John1:33b "he that sent me to baptize with water" and it is God the Father that Sent John the Baptist with God's Authority to Initiate The Divine Ordinance of Baptism in water, for the churches that Jesus was to build.
...

Acts 1:5

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Same as above:

In Context: 4 And, being assembled together with them, (these are Jesus Disciple ASSEMBLED TOGETHER in Jesus' Kind of church Organization He Built) (and Jesus) commanded them (His Disciples as a Divinely Organized church assembly) that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me (Jesus).

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye (His Disciples as a Divinely Organized church assembly) shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus would 'baptize' figuratively or Immerse His Church body at Jerusalem (His Disciples as a Divinely Organized church assembly) in The Anointing of The Shekinah Glory, with The Holy Spirit, on The Day of Pentecost.

Jesus was to do the 'baptizing.' Not The Holy Spirit.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water. Acts 1:5a; "For John truly baptized with water".
...

, Mark 16:16

16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

as if to say, after Jesus "upbraided" the eleven disciples for "their unbelief"*,
again, as if to say, Jesus said, "He that believeth" shall have their soul saved and "he that believeth not shall be damned".

17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe;", as Jesus sent the eleven sent them out with The Great Commission; "20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

In The Great Commission, in Context, 16 "He that believeth (has their soul saved, upon being made a disciple) and is baptized (in water, into membership of one of The Lord's churches, will have their life saved and not walk around in unbelief, like the disciples) "shall be saved";

*Context of "unbelief": 11 "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not."

13 "And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them".

14 "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief
...
The 'baptism' in Mark 16:16 is water baptism.

Acts 2:38

38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost*."

*The Gift of the Holy Spirit, with the Supernatural, Miraculous Gift from the Apostle Peter, has nothing to do with a 'baptism'.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water. Acts 2:38; "Repent, and be baptized (after they are saved, they are to be baptized by water into membership in a local church assembly of Jesus) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ".

Acts 10:47

47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost* as well as we?"

*The Gentiles Receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit, with the Supernatural, Miraculous Gift from the Apostle Peter, that has nothing to do with a 'baptism'.

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water. Acts 10:47; "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized," (after they are saved, they are to be baptized by water into membership in a local church assembly of Jesus).
...
con't

 

[Alan Gross]

, 1 Corinthians 12:13,

In Context, what kind of 'body' is it talking about in vs 13?

A 'body' of locally assembled believers that are members of that one local body.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members,

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

26 "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

Verse 27 of this quotation tells what kind of body is meant in verse 13: the kind of which the church at Corinth was an example.

27 "Now ye are the body of Christ (that Local assembly AT CORINTH; there is "one body"/ One KIND of body, like there is ONE KIND of a human body, from the immediate Context), and members in particular."

I Corinthians 1:13-17 shows what kind of baptism is meant: namely baptism in water.

In fact, there is only one kind of baptism recognized in the New Testament as an ordinance of Christ: all other so-called baptisms are figurative or symbolic, deriving their significance from this baptizing in water to declare the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and all that this means to us.

What is the "One Spirit in vs 13?

1. The Spirit calls men into this body (l Corinthians 12:13, 18).

18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."
...

"13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

13 "For by one Spirit"
The Spirit calls men into this body (l Corinthians 12:13, 18).

18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."

"are we all baptized"
I Corinthians 1:13-17 shows what kind of baptism is meant: namely baptism in water.

In fact, there is only one kind of baptism recognized in the New Testament as an ordinance of Christ: all other so-called baptisms are figurative or symbolic, deriving their significance from this baptizing in water to declare the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and all that this means to us.

"into one body,"
Verse 27 of this quotation tells what kind of body is meant in verse 13: the kind of which the church at Corinth was an example.

27 "Now ye are the body of Christ (that Local assembly AT CORINTH; there is "one body"/ One KIND of body, like there is ONE KIND of a human body, from the immediate Context), and members in particular."

In Context, what kind of 'body' is it talking about in vs 13?

A 'body' of locally assembled believers that are members of that one local body.

...
Again, "13 For by one Spirit (The Holy Spirit calls men into this local body, at Corinth) are we all (those that got saved in Corinth) (water) baptized into one body (into this local body, at Corinth)...

There is "one" literal "baptism"/ baptism in water.l Corinthians 12:13; "we all" (those that got saved in Corinth) (water) "baptized into one body" (into this local body, at Corinth).. (after they are saved, they are to be baptized by water into membership in a local church assembly of Jesus, like this one at Corinth).
...

, Mark 1:18

Maybe you're right about this one, I'm not sure.

18 "And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him."

Vanology?

 

[Alan Gross]

Fuller is the full on enemy of Monergism.

O.K.

I didn't know.

I thought some here were big fans of his and might like to see his take.

Use this if you all practice discipline
(another fine, more modern, reference:
https://pastortim.com/church-discipline/)

THE REASON OR PURPOSE OF CHURCH DISCIPLINE

1. "It will aid the church in getting rid of her unregenerated members. Of course, no church should, in reality, have any unregenerated members, however, many of them, perhaps, most of them do have some people in their membership who are unsaved. Certainly, an unsaved person cannot live a Christian life. He has no spiritual background. He has no foundation for his life. His life is being built upon the sand rather than upon the eternal Rock of Ages, Jesus Christ, the only true foundation for salvation, I Cor. 3:11. Hence, exercising strict church discipline will help to keep the church free from such members.

2. "It will aid in chastening the erring children of God in the churches. It will cause them to repent of their sins and weaknesses of the flesh.

3. "It will be a constant reminder to the church and to the world that God’s justice in judgment will find, the wicked in whatever state, condition, or society they may seek to live.

4. "It will increase the membership among those who want a clean, wholesome spiritual environment in which to live. There are times when some churches would exercise their authority in church discipline were it not for fear of offending someone."

etc., etc.

 

[Van]

Folks, note the denial but without reference to the scriptures that teach the opposite?

Please read Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:18, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27.

Note that everyone of these supporting verses for spiritual baptism has been denied. Incredible

 

[Alan Gross]

Galatians 3:27

Galatians 3:27 Gill C&P, because he knows the Bible is fun.

Others, not so much.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ,....

Not that it is to be imagined that these churches of Galatia,
or any of the primitive churches consisted of baptized
and unbaptized persons;

for this would be acting contrary to the commission of Christ
and the order of the Gospel: but this way of speaking
supposes that there might be some of them,
who though baptized in water, yet not into Christ;

and that those who are truly and rightly baptized,
who are proper subjects of it,
and to whom it is administered in a proper manner,
are baptized into Christ:
not that by baptism they are brought into union with Christ,

but into communion with him; (by their testimony and submission,
to His Command),

for they are not merely baptized in his name, and by his authority,
and according to his command, and into his doctrine,
and a profession of him;
(by their testimony and submission, to His Command to be baptized)

but into a participation of the blessings of grace which are in him,
and come through his sufferings and death;

for they that are (water) baptized into Christ
are (water) baptized into his death and resurrection from the dead;
(by their testimony and submission,
to His Command to be baptized into one of His churches)

they are led by faith to behold the cleansing of their souls,
and the remission of their sins by his blood,
and their justification by his righteousness;

how he was delivered for their offenses,
died for their sins, was buried in the grave,
and their iniquities with him, and rose again for their justification;

of all which, (water) baptism, performed by immersion,
is a lively emblem; and this is to be baptized into Christ,
namely, being (water) baptized believing in him,
and calling on his name: and such

have put on Christ; both before and at (water) baptism:
before it they put him on
(as Identifying with Jesus in the picture of water baptism) as the Lord their righteousness;
his righteousness is compared to a garment, is called the best robe,
the wedding garment, fine linen, clean and white,
the robe of righteousness, a garment down to the feet;

(what they are pictureing in water baptism)
is imputed to the elect of God by the Father,
through a gracious act of his, and what they are clothed
and covered with by the Son,

and is put upon them and applied unto them by the Spirit;
(when they were saved)

and which faith receiving puts off its own rags of righteousness,
and makes use of this as its proper dress to appear in
before the most High;

and such through divine grace are enabled to put off the old man
and put on the new; (now that they were saved)

that is, walk in their outward lives and conversation,
not according to the dictates of corrupt nature (now that they were saved).

 

[Alan Gross]

Note that everyone of these supporting verses for spiritual baptism has been denied. Incredible

because, there is no such thing.

spiritual baptism

is not in the Book, or having anything to do with God.