Recognizing irregular church doctrines.

[Van]

Note that everyone of these supporting verses for spiritual baptism has been denied. Incredible

Please read Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:18, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27.

And also note that not one of the other irregular Baptists posting on this thread, have defended the fact we are spiritually baptized into Christ and water baptism just symbolizes that spiritual reality. It is like none have every attended a class about water baptism..

 

[AustinC]

Note that everyone of these supporting verses for spiritual baptism has been denied. Incredible

Please read Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:18, Mark 16:16, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, 1 Corinthians 12:13, and Galatians 3:27.

And also note that not one of the other irregular Baptists posting on this thread, have defended the fact we are spiritually baptized into Christ and water baptism just symbolizes that spiritual reality. It is like none have every attended a class about water baptism..

Van, will it help that I agree with the red bolded statement you made?

The Greek word, baptizo, was a common word, meaning to dip or immerse into. It could be applied to anything. Garlic bread, dipped into a nice marinara sauce, is baptized into that sauce. So it is when the Bible says we were baptized into Christ.
We were immersed into Christ.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

These verses all point to us being immersed into Christ. Water did not do this. (If it did, then Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans are correct in teaching baptismal regeneration.) No, the Spirit of God immersed us into Christ when He chose to quicken us and make us alive with Christ.

Thus,we have to discern when God is speaking of the Spirit's immersion (baptism) of us into Christ and our public declaration of immersion into Christ expressed by immersion into water.

So, if all we are discussing is immersion and the work of the Holy Spirit in immersing us into Christ, then I can agree with you on this point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

O.K.

I didn't know.

I thought some here were big fans of his and might like to see his take.

Use this if you all practice discipline
(another fine, more modern, reference:
https://pastortim.com/church-discipline/)

THE REASON OR PURPOSE OF CHURCH DISCIPLINE

1. "It will aid the church in getting rid of her unregenerated members. Of course, no church should, in reality, have any unregenerated members, however, many of them, perhaps, most of them do have some people in their membership who are unsaved. Certainly, an unsaved person cannot live a Christian life. He has no spiritual background. He has no foundation for his life. His life is being built upon the sand rather than upon the eternal Rock of Ages, Jesus Christ, the only true foundation for salvation, I Cor. 3:11. Hence, exercising strict church discipline will help to keep the church free from such members.

2. "It will aid in chastening the erring children of God in the churches. It will cause them to repent of their sins and weaknesses of the flesh.

3. "It will be a constant reminder to the church and to the world that God’s justice in judgment will find, the wicked in whatever state, condition, or society they may seek to live.

4. "It will increase the membership among those who want a clean, wholesome spiritual environment in which to live. There are times when some churches would exercise their authority in church discipline were it not for fear of offending someone."

etc., etc.

Yea, a guy that corrupts the purity of Salvation by Grace is like a guy who puts glass shards in your morning cereal.

 

[Alan Gross]

the fact we are spiritually baptized into Christ

1

water baptism just symbolizes that spiritual reality.

+1 = 2.
...

the Spirit's immersion (baptism) of us into Christ

1

our public declaration of immersion into Christ expressed by immersion into water.

+1 = 2.
...

So, if all we are discussing is immersion and the work of the Holy Spirit in immersing us into Christ, then I can agree with you on this point.

If we are discussing the Bible, where is the first place you would go
to show that somebody has an irregularity to resolve?

4 "There is one body and one Spirit,
just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

1

 

[AustinC]

1

+1 = 2.
...


1

+1 = 2.
...



If we are discussing the Bible, where is the first place you would go
to show that somebody has an irregularity to resolve?

4 "There is one body and one Spirit,
just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

1

I see no irregularity that needs resolving.

 

[Salty]

1

1

+1 = 2.

I see no irregularity that needs resolving.

Unless you are a democrat

 

[Alan Gross]

from: http://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/pink.local.church.html
(Alan's comments in blue, below

Based on all of the following, I am going to have to agree to disagree with you fellows.

Dr. Scofield goes off the deep end, again.

In my blog, I use Orange to indicate crazy things people say, when I quote them, as below, also.

"The Authorized Version of 1 Corinthians 12:13 reads as follows: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into the body" - concerning this we shall have more to say later on. In 1 Corinthians 12 Dr. Scofield, in his Reference Bible, has this to say: "Chapter 12 concerns the Spirit in relation to the body of Christ. This relation is twofold:

"(1) The baptism with the Spirit forms the Body by uniting believers to Christ (I see others may have gotten this from Dr. Scofield, but WHERE DID HE COME UP WITH IT AT?) the risen and glorified Head, and to each other (verses 12, 13). The symbol of the Body thus formed is the natural, human body (v. 12), and all the analogies are freely used (vs. 14-26).

"(2) To each believer is given a spiritual enablement and capacity for specific service," etc., etc. In capitalizing the word "body" (in point #1, above) Dr. Scofield unquestionably has in mind "the Church Universal." Should there be any doubt upon this point it is at once dispelled by a reference to the notes of Dr. Scofield on Hebrews 12:23 -

"The true church, composed of the whole number of regenerate persons from Pentecost to the First Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52,) united together and to Christ by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:12, 13), is the Body of which He is the Head."

"It is to be noted that in both places the Doctor speaks of "the baptism with the Spirit," but in 1 Corinthians 12:13 there is no mention made at all of any baptism "with" the Holy Spirit, either in the English or in the Greek; such is merely a figment of the Doctor's imagination." (see 1 Corinthians 12:13, below).

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

adapted from: Baptism, by Rev. M. W. Gilbert, A. M., 1890<
(Alan's comments in blue, below

"In Romans 6:3-4, we read: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Here baptism is spoken of figuratively, symbolically, as a burial, "buried with him by baptism"; hence, when there is no burial, there can be no baptism (and with no mention of 'a sprit', we know there is also no made-up "spirit baptism" "into Christ"?, having to do with salvation, i.e., another Gospel) .

"Bloomfield, who is not a Baptist, says of these two passages of Scripture: "There is here plainly a reference to the ancient mode of baptism by immersion, and I agree with Koppe and Rosenmiiller, that there is reason to regret that it should have been abandoned in most Christian churches, especially as it has so evidently a reference to the mystic sense of baptism."
...

con't

 

[Alan Gross]

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

adapted from: http://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/pink.local.church.html
(Alan's comments in blue, below

"for by one spirit were we all baptized into one body."

"Into one body" is supposed to mean "into Christ"?

"Into what body? The "church Universal" or a local church of Christ?

Or "into Christ"?

"We submit that a careful study of 1 Corinthians 12 can furnish only one possible answer - a local Baptist church. Note the following points.

"(1) The head of the "body" described here in 1 Corinthians 12 is seen to be on earth - verses 16, 17.

"16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?"

"17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?"

"Now it would be utterly incongruous to represent the Head of the mystical, universal church (or "into Christ"(?) (supposing such a thing existed, which, as yet it certainly does not) as on earth, for the Head of that church which, in the future, will be the universal Church of Christ, is in heaven, and it is in heaven the universal church will assemble (see Hebrews 12:22-24).

"But it is perfectly fitting to represent (in the illustration of the human body) the head of the local church as on earth, for wherever a local New Testament church assembles for worship or to transact business for Christ, He is in their midst (Matthew 18:20). (and also not "into Christ"?)

"(2) In 1 Corinthians 12:22, 23, we read of members of the body who seem to be "more feeble," and of those "less honorable" and of "uncomely" parts of members.

"22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:"

"23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness."

"Now such characteristics of members of the human body accurately illustrate the differences which exist between the spiritual states of various members in a local assembly, but the illustration of the "body" here fails completely if the "Church Universal" is in view, (or "into Christ"(?) for when the Church Universal meets in heaven every member of it will be "like Christ," "fashioned into the body of glory," and such comparisons as "more feeble," "less honorable," "uncomely members," will forever be a thing of the past!"

"(3) In 1 Corinthians 12:24 the apostle speaks of what God has done in order that there should be no schism in the body (v. 25).

"24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:"

"Now let any impartial reader ask, in what body is a schism (division) possible? Certainly not in the Church Universal (in Heaven) for that is solely of Divine workmanship, into which human responsibility and failure do not enter. When the church of the First-Born assembles in heaven, glorified, "not having spot or wrinkle or anything," there will be no "schism" there. But in the church which the apostle is contemplating in 1 Corinthians 12 there was "schism" (see 1 Corinthians 11:18, etc.)."

Context prior to 1 Corinthians 12:

"11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it."

"Therefore it is proof positive that it is the local church, and not the Church Universal, (or "into Christ"(?) which is in view in 1 Corinthians 12."

"(4) In Corinthians 12:26 we read "and whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it: or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it." Now is this true of a Universal Church? (or "into Christ"(?) Certainly not. Is it true that whenever a believer in Christ in India or China (of whom I have never even heard) "suffers" that "all the members," all believers in America, "suffers" with it or him? Certainly not. But it is true ideally, and often in an experience that when one member of a local church "suffers" all the members of that local church suffer too. We must refrain from adding further arguments."

"Sufficient has been advanced, we trust, to prove that the "body" referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 is a local church (and not "into Christ"(?) and that the "human body" is here used to illustrate the mutual dependence and relationship existing between its various members. From this established and incontrovertible fact, several conclusions follow:"

"First, the "baptism" by which one enters "into" a New Testament church is water baptism, for the Holy Spirit does not "baptize" anybody into a local assembly (and not "into Christ"(?)"

"Second, no matter what our nationality - Jew or Gentile - no matter what our social standing - slave or freeman - all the members of the local church have been baptized "in one spirit," that is, in one mind, purpose, accord, (and not "into Christ"(?) and there is, therefore, the oneness of aim for them to follow, oneness of privilege to enjoy, the oneness of responsibility to discharge...

"Third, there is only one way of entrance into a local church of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is by "baptism" scripturally performed by a scripturally qualified and scripturally authorized administrator, for we read "in one spirit we were all baptized into one body." It, therefore, follows that none save those who have been Scripturally "baptized" have entered "into" a New Testament Church, all others being members of nothing but man-made institutions. Hence the tremendous importance of "keeping the ordinances" as they have been delivered by Christ Himself to His churches."

Likewise I Corinthians 12:13 refers to water baptism being administered by the leadership of the Spirit. He alone can, through the new birth, make one a candidate for baptism and He alone can lead a church to baptize such a person.

con't

 

[Alan Gross]

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

"The "baptism" here is not Holy Spirit baptism at all, but water baptism.

Note: whenever we read of "baptism" in the New Testament without anything in the verse or context which expressly describes it (as in Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 4:5, etc.), it is always water baptism that is in view."

Not a "spirit" baptizing". "Spirit" is not mentioned."


Galatians 3:27
"For all of you who were baptized into Christ
have clothed yourselves with Christ."

As in:
Galatians 3:27
"For all of you who were (water) baptized into Christ
have clothed yourselves with Christ."



Ephesians 4:5; "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

As in:
Ephesians 4:5; "One Lord, one faith, one (water) baptism,"

John the Baptist taught that only Messiah could baptize with the Spirit (Matthew 3: 11). This was because the gift of the Spirit had to be purchased for us by the Lord Jesus.

"11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

When Jesus 'baptized' with The Holy Spirit:

from: The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit By Ron Crisp

"1. The baptism with the Spirit was the outpouring of the Spirit upon various peoples.

"2. This dispensation of the Spirit was possible because of Christ’s finished work. Indeed it was Christ who did the baptizing (Acts 2:33).

"3. This baptism was not bestowed on a day-by-day basis to individuals but rather it was given to a distinct group at a distinct time.

"4. Once given this experience was not repeated, for the coming of the Spirit to any group was permanent. The signs that surrounded any certain baptism were sufficient to accredit that group once-and-for-all (Acts 11:15-18). The author for instance would never seek baptism with the Spirit because the Gentiles received this over nineteen hundred years ago as recorded in Acts chapter 10. It was sufficiently attested by signs at that time.

"5. No one ever sought this experience nor was anyone ever commanded to seek it. It was given by God in His time. (Note how in Acts chapters 8 and 10 both Philip and Peter were accosted by God for certain work at a particular time in connection with the baptism).

Jesus', regarding His figurative (with this use of the word) 'baptism' with The Holy Spirit on The Day of Pentecost, or ANY OTHER TIME, is never related to 'salvation'.

"Spirit baptism" into Christ, or into an "Invisible body", or even "into the Kingdom, or Family, of God, are the inventions of man's imagination.

A. I won't be attempting to act God to accept my worship, involving such an idolatrous invention.

B. I won't be facing Jesus, having advanced a fantasy of this sort.

C. Our churches, of like faith and order consider "Spirit baptism" into Christ, or into an "Invisible body", a doctrinal irregularity, and schism.

 

[Alan Gross]

Of all the things on earth, you agree with Vanology, on something.

You both have 2 baptisms.

The Bible has 1.

Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;"

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed not sooner than 1030 hrs GMT/ 530 AM EST / 230 AM PST

 

[AustinC]

Of all the things on earth, you agree with Vanology, on something.

You both have 2 baptisms.

The Bible has 1.

Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;"

There is only one true baptism. It's when the Holy Spirit baptized (immersed) us into Christ. I provided the text. You will have to argue against scripture to make every use of the word "baptizo" mean immersing in water. The context will not support you. You can quote Gill all night long and the context still won't back you up.

Second, what is your argument for water baptismal regeneration since your view must support it.

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Alan Gross]

There is only one true baptism. It's when the Holy Spirit baptized (immersed) us into Christ. I provided the text.

If I say that the Divine Origin of the church Ordinance of baptism was initiated by the Authority of God and the Counsel of God, was by a man Sent from God to baptism, who Baptized Jesus, because Jesus said to permit John Baptizing Him to fulfill all Righteousness, where the Triune GODHEAD made their only appearance in the Bible and God the Father said He was Well Pleased with it, before Jesus Commissioned the church He Founded and Commanded them to go make disciples and baptism them in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, you usurp THEM, to make something else out of a couple of vauge passages using the word 'baptism', into substituting something other than the Spirit Indwelling the believer in salvation, into 'baptizing' them instead of Filling them with the Holy Spirit?

And you call that the 'true baptism', instead of what God Ordained, to be baptism into what Jesus called 'My church'?

I'll hold my position on 'one baptism' being His water baptism He Divinely Originated to be an Ordinance of His New Testament churches.

That nullifies the existence of a second kind of 'spirit baptism', because that causes a discrepancy and contradiction, in the Record.

You would have to provide a text that has 'baptise', 'spirit', and 'Christ', in it. I don't see it, or anything like it, no matter how vague the verse is. Looks to me like you are assuming something. Like infant baptism or baptismal regeneration, or universal church, or evolution, or non- cessationists or other irregular 'doctrines' have going for them. No teaching on it. Just assumption.

Once you take away 'assumption', it disappears. Then, you have to try to find something you can see, in black and white. Not mixing several thoughts from different verses together. Or referencing marginal notes.

"baptizo" mean immersing in water.

Every usage that means water does mean water. There is 'one baptism'. One kind of baptism. Immersion in Water. The other usages are figurative. Like the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and the baptism in the Lake of Fire.

You can quote Gill all night long

I didn't quote Gill once. But thanks, anyway.
Oh, wait. Yeah, when I was talking to Mr. Van. He likes Gill as much as he does C&P.

Don't remind me, you agree with him.

 

[Salty]

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