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Reconciliation
- Thread starter Van
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
I know, and I do believe that very sadly, there will be millions who are in hell for whom Jesus died, because He died for the entire human race. However, the person I was responding to does not believe this, so I was showing by their own words, that they are not consistent with what they say, and what they are meant to believe. This is true for all "reformed/calvinists".
You admit that Jesus blood was shed in vain via your universal atonement. Of course that view makes God weak and incapable of saving all for whom he died. It also annihilates 2 Peter 3:9 and makes it a lie.
Absolutely nothing can make God's word weak. or make it a lie.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
What this verse does is make Calvinism a lie.
MB
Yet SBW wrote:
What 1 Peter 3:9 does is make sbw a liar since he declares that millions are in hell. (MB, do you agree with sbw?)
MB, the only people who can promote universal atonement and not be contradicting themselves is a Universalist who believes all humans will be in heaven. You and sbw both limit the atonement as "many are in hell." Thus the will of a human is greater, in your theology, than the will of God.
Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation
Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.
General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.
The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen when He was chosen individually, because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus everyone to be redeemed was corporately chosen when His Redeemer was chosen.
The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.
The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.
General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.
The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen when He was chosen individually, because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus everyone to be redeemed was corporately chosen when His Redeemer was chosen.
The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.
The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
Jesus never says those men did not believe because they were not His Sheep. That is a perversion. The NASB reads "of My Sheep" (John 10:26) and the Greek word translated "of" is "ek" which in this usage refers to the source from which His sheep come, i.e. people open to God's word, the people that comprise the fields white for harvest. (John 4:35)
Consider the meaning of sheep when used to refer to humanity. The sheep could refer to any group of people, saved, not saved, depending on context. My sheep refers to those who "belong" to Christ, i.e. people God has placed within Christ. Of My sheep refers to the source from which His sheep come, i.e. people open to God's word, the people that comprise the fields white for harvest, John 4:35.
What could turn a person into "not of His sheep?" Buying into false doctrine would predispose a person to reject actual true biblical doctrine. Thus the Pharisees, believing their human interpretation of God's word rejected the teachings of Jesus.
As ambassadors of Christ, when we beg others to be reconciled, the idea is that they would embrace the gospel of Christ, because any other gospel would prevent those seeking salvation from entering. See Matthew 23:13
Consider the meaning of sheep when used to refer to humanity. The sheep could refer to any group of people, saved, not saved, depending on context. My sheep refers to those who "belong" to Christ, i.e. people God has placed within Christ. Of My sheep refers to the source from which His sheep come, i.e. people open to God's word, the people that comprise the fields white for harvest, John 4:35.
What could turn a person into "not of His sheep?" Buying into false doctrine would predispose a person to reject actual true biblical doctrine. Thus the Pharisees, believing their human interpretation of God's word rejected the teachings of Jesus.
As ambassadors of Christ, when we beg others to be reconciled, the idea is that they would embrace the gospel of Christ, because any other gospel would prevent those seeking salvation from entering. See Matthew 23:13
37818
Well-Known Member
Hmm. How do you understand John 8:47, ". . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. . . ."? Connecting with John 10:26-27, ". . . But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: . . ."?
I understand "sheep" to refer to persons' final state, like in Matthew 25:31-46. Noting Jesus' parable of the sower as to types of hearers.
You are the weak one aren't you?. You make your self what you have accused SBW of. You can call 1 Peter 3:9 anything you like. Most people hear aren't impressed by your finesse. I know I'm not.
MB
Same answer, "not of God" refers to individuals who are not the open to God's word, therefore not the same kind of people who are open to God's word. Notice those "of God" are those who hear, thus open to God's word.
The message of scripture is consistent.
And I do not recommend assuming the same meaning of a metaphor from illustration to illustration. "The sheep" refers to those who belong to Christ, same as "My sheep" in another illustration, and "the goats" refers to those who physically died in unbelief. Before physical death, the lost comprise the sheep who are "of My sheep" and those who for whatever reason, are not open to God's word. We should still cultivate, plant and water until it becomes clear we would be better ambassadors, it we carry our message of reconciliation to those who are open or more open. Then, sadly, we are told to shake the dust from our sandals.
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