I was unaware of that.
MB
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Reconciliation
- Thread starter Van
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MB
...the above is what is known as a false statement...
Show us all how John 3:13-18 destroys the idea that:
1) humans are corrupt and by nature are in rebellion against God.
2) God does chooses whom He wills according to grace alone.
3) A limited amount of people will believe.
4) God's grace is given to to those He chooses so a person cannot deny God's grace
5) The redeemed will persevere in faith.
Show us how these are destroyed by John in 6 verses.
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
~ John 3:13-21
Here's the other option:
1) Humans have at least some righteousness outside of God.
2) Election is conditional based upon some merited action that must take place.
3) All humanity is fully atoned by Jesus penal substitution.
4) God can be defeated and resisted.
5) The redeemed can unredeem themselves and defeat God's redemptive work in their lives.
MB, I take those 5 points to be your stance.
...so you agree with limited atonement...
...and now you contradict yourself and declare universal atonement...
Are you clueless regarding the covenants God has made with men? It seems so, based upon your writing above.
Corrupt but not disabled
God chooses those who believe Gal. 2 16
There is no limit those who are not saved are in rebelion and is why they aren't saved.
Wrong! God is love and does not force Salvation on any one.
There is nothing in Jn. 6 that supports this nonsense. Christ was speaking to His disciples, not Gentiles. The whole book of Jn is addressed to Jews not Gentiles.
Yet you apply it to your self. May I remind you that even though Verse 44 is often taken to mean men will be saved regardless Judas was not and he was drawn too. Verse 45 says
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
So much for election
IOW's if we have learned of God we will be saved.. It's ironic that you claim God came to you and regenerated you even before you were born.
MB
Wrong You are the one who believes in works this is how you persevere. Jn 6:45 proves learning of Jesus is not a work.
MB
thomas15
Well-Known Member
According to the Calvinistic cut and pasters who are busy cutting and pasting:
Only the elect are saved. It is only those individuals who were set aside back in the beginning that will get the benefits of the blood of Christ. The reason being that individuals are so depraved and corrupt that they cannot repent and believe, only those who are elect have any possibility of repenting and believing. Those not of the elect who repent and believe are not really saved because their repentance and faith are false because they are corrupted by Satin who by the way according to the preterists is chained in the bottomless pit. In other words there are a bunch of unbelievers in the Kingdom of Christ on earth today who have repented and trusted in the shed blood of Christ but not saved because they are not on the list of elect.
Just ask Baptist know-it-all John Piper or the late Presbyterian RC Sproul if confessing your need and trusting in the shed blood of Christ is sufficient to gain entry into heaven. They will tell you that you need to have a long list of works to prove that you are of the elect needed for final salvation.
Even with a long list of good deeds if you are not on the list of elect individuals then you will be disappointed at the Judgement Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne judgement which they think is the same thing. Regardless, there is no way to know for sure if you are of the elect until you stand in judgement.
This of course begs the question, if no one knows for certain that they are of the elect but they think they are because they claim to be followers of Calvin and cut and paste the doctrines of grace on internet Baptist Boards and do good works that they hope will impress God but are really not saved because they really are not of the elect, then how can they utilize the Holy Spirit to aid in the study of the Scriptures to both educate themselves and others in the ways of God? The question becomes more complicated than are you of the saved elect because if you think you are and others who also think they are elect agree you are one of them but you are really not then anything you teach about God is suspect because you really don’t have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because you are not elect.
Only the elect are saved. It is only those individuals who were set aside back in the beginning that will get the benefits of the blood of Christ. The reason being that individuals are so depraved and corrupt that they cannot repent and believe, only those who are elect have any possibility of repenting and believing. Those not of the elect who repent and believe are not really saved because their repentance and faith are false because they are corrupted by Satin who by the way according to the preterists is chained in the bottomless pit. In other words there are a bunch of unbelievers in the Kingdom of Christ on earth today who have repented and trusted in the shed blood of Christ but not saved because they are not on the list of elect.
Just ask Baptist know-it-all John Piper or the late Presbyterian RC Sproul if confessing your need and trusting in the shed blood of Christ is sufficient to gain entry into heaven. They will tell you that you need to have a long list of works to prove that you are of the elect needed for final salvation.
Even with a long list of good deeds if you are not on the list of elect individuals then you will be disappointed at the Judgement Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne judgement which they think is the same thing. Regardless, there is no way to know for sure if you are of the elect until you stand in judgement.
This of course begs the question, if no one knows for certain that they are of the elect but they think they are because they claim to be followers of Calvin and cut and paste the doctrines of grace on internet Baptist Boards and do good works that they hope will impress God but are really not saved because they really are not of the elect, then how can they utilize the Holy Spirit to aid in the study of the Scriptures to both educate themselves and others in the ways of God? The question becomes more complicated than are you of the saved elect because if you think you are and others who also think they are elect agree you are one of them but you are really not then anything you teach about God is suspect because you really don’t have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because you are not elect.
It's interesting how you conveniently ignore verse 44 of John 6...
John 6:43-47
Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Even your verse (44) teaches a limited atonement and salvation. Verse 43 shows you why it's limited.
MB, you keep fighting against God and his word. Do you really think your life is better when you are driving the ship?
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Are we to presume that you are an expert on the covenants given to the Sons of Abraham?
Jesus never says those men did not believe because they were not His Sheep. That is a perversion. The NASB reads "of My Sheep" (John 10:26) and the Greek word translated "of" is "ek" which in this usage refers to the source from which His sheep come, i.e. people open to God's word, the people that comprise the fields white for harvest. (John 4:35)
What could turn a person into "not of His sheep?" Buying into false doctrine would predispose a person to reject actual true biblical doctrine. Thus the Pharisees, believing their human interpretation of God's word rejected the teachings of Jesus.
As ambassadors of Christ, when we beg others to be reconciled, the idea is that they would embrace the gospel of Christ, because any other gospel would prevent those seeking salvation from entering. See Matthew 23:13
What could turn a person into "not of His sheep?" Buying into false doctrine would predispose a person to reject actual true biblical doctrine. Thus the Pharisees, believing their human interpretation of God's word rejected the teachings of Jesus.
As ambassadors of Christ, when we beg others to be reconciled, the idea is that they would embrace the gospel of Christ, because any other gospel would prevent those seeking salvation from entering. See Matthew 23:13
Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation
Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.
General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.
The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen when He was chosen individually, because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus everyone to be redeemed was corporately chosen when His Redeemer was chosen.
The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.
The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.
General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.
The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen when He was chosen individually, because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus everyone to be redeemed was corporately chosen when His Redeemer was chosen.
The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.
The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
Nope
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Finally we are in agreement on at least one thing.
I didn't create it, God did!.. He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world that who so ever believes shall be saved. Not just a select few.
Open your eyes Jn 3 destroys Calvinism.
MB
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