Reconciliation

[Van]

Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation

Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.

General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.

The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen when He was chosen individually, because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus everyone to be redeemed was corporately chosen when His Redeemer was chosen.

The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.

The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus said He knows His sheep and calls them by name (a specific call to individuals, not a general call)

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and will follow Him. (irresistible grace) He lays down His life for His sheep (limited atonement) He will not lose even one and will raise all of them up on the final day (perseverance of the saints)

Jesus tells certain religious men they do not believe because they are not His sheep. He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they do not believe, He says they don’t believe because they are not His sheep. (Total depravity)

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation

Particular Reconciliation:

(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

John 17:9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John 6:37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

...and many more...

(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

General Reconciliation:

(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.

A very convoluted comment from Van. Ultimately, however, it's still a limited selection by God of individuals.

(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.

Another convoluted way of expressing a limited atonement. (Note: Only a true universalist ever promotes an unlimited atonement.)

(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.

A works/merit based theology not supported in the Bible that eliminates grace (Salvation by no merited work of man, but only by God's gracious favor.).
[/b]

 

[Van]

Jesus said He knows His sheep and calls them by name (a specific call to individuals, not a general call)

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and will follow Him. (irresistible grace) He lays down His life for His sheep (limited atonement) He will not lose even one and will raise all of them up on the final day (perseverance of the saints)

Jesus tells certain religious men they do not believe because they are not His sheep. He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they do not believe, He says they don’t believe because they are not His sheep. (Total depravity)

peace to you

I think we have already gone over those verses. They do not support the fiction of Calvinism in the slightest.

For example, "His sheep" refers to those God has given to Christ, not to those not yet individually chosen and given to (placed within) Christ.

And Jesus never says those men did not believe because they were not His Sheep. That is a perversion. The NASB reads "of My Sheep" (John 10:26) and the Greek word translated "of" is "ek" which in this usage refers to the source from which His sheep come, i.e. people open to God's word, the people that comprise the fields white for harvest. (John 4:35)

I did look through a listing of English Translations and found 38 or so that omitted translating the "of/ek" and so read My Sheep or words to that effect. However, the KJV, NKJV, NASB, LEB, WEB, and YLT were not among them. But the usual suspects (NLT, NIV, ESV) contained the Calvinist omission.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.

General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle of these two, and subsequently draw fire from both sides...

(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation.
(1.5) God knew that mankind would universally reject Christ, so He chose the lowest and weakest of the bunch to save, unconditionally, as both a display of His mercy and an act of judgement on those who should have been the first to acknowledge Him as God.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general (no one has an excuse), but specifically for the individuals that God gave Him.
(3) God places those who He has chosen in Christ. He gives them the gift of faith, convicts them of their sin, and "calls" them to holiness.

 

[Van]

I think I fall somewhere in the middle of these two, and subsequently draw fire from both sides...

(1) God selected Christ to redeem mankind before creation.
(1.5) God knew that mankind would universally reject Christ, so He chose the lowest and weakest of the bunch to save, unconditionally, as both a display of His mercy and an act of judgement on those who should have been the first to acknowledge Him as God.
(2) Christ came and died for mankind in general (no one has an excuse), but specifically for the individuals that God gave Him.
(3) God places those who He has chosen in Christ. He gives them the gift of faith, convicts them of their sin, and "calls" them to holiness.

Sorry but in my opinion, your views fall right next to Particular Reconciliation.
1) Christ was not "universally rejected" even among Jews.
2) Election is conditional, those (1) poor to the world, (2) those rich in faith, and (3) those who love God. James 2:5
3) Fallen humanity is condemned already, from the get-go. John 3:18
4) God gives individuals to Christ when God places them in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
5) Before God gives individuals to Christ, He credits their faith as righteousness, therefore they had faith before being chosen for salvation.
6) The gift of faith is a fiction

 

[Iconoclast]

All who are elected to be In Christ were elected before the world was
The foolish idea that anyone gets"placed" there during their lifetime is foreign to scripture.
Man does not have saving faith to be credited .....only in a gospel of another kind.

 

[AustinC]

Sorry but in my opinion, your views fall right next to Particular Reconciliation.
1) Christ was not "universally rejected" even among Jews.
2) Election is conditional, those (1) poor to the world, (2) those rich in faith, and (3) those who love God. James 2:5
3) Fallen humanity is condemned already, from the get-go. John 3:18
4) God gives individuals to Christ when God places them in Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
5) Before God gives individuals to Christ, He credits their faith as righteousness, therefore they had faith before being chosen for salvation.
6) The gift of faith is a fiction

Anyone with any discernment will recognize this as a merit-based means of salvation that is essentially graceless.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

1) Christ was not "universally rejected" even among Jews.

3) Fallen humanity is condemned already, from the get-go. John 3:18

"Every one" rejects Christ. This is the condemnation of fallen humanity.

John 3:19-20
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Romans 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The only one's who come to Christ, are those who have already been born again.

John 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

2) Election is conditional, those (1) poor to the world, (2) those rich in faith, and (3) those who love God. James 2:5

Except that James 2:5 says that God chose the poor rich in faith, not that he chose the poor and rich in faith:

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

And there's also this:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[canadyjd]

I think we have already gone over those verses. They do not support the fiction of Calvinism in the slightest……

For example, "His sheep" refers to those God has given to Christ, not to those not yet individually chosen and given to (placed within) Christ…… .

Jesus said He knows His sheep, He calls them by name and then they follow Him. He said there were others, not of this fold (Jews) and He will call them as well.

He did not say once they follow Him, He gets to know their names and then He calls them.

Jesus told the religious men they did not believe because…… this is a clear cause and effect. They don’t believe because……. they are not of His sheep.

It doesn’t matter how you want to define “of” in this verse, it will not change the cause and effect described by Jesus.

peace to you

 

[Van]

"Every one" rejects Christ. This is the condemnation of fallen humanity.

John 3:19-20
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Romans 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The only one's who come to Christ, are those who have already been born again.

John 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Your assertions are fiction! Not everyone rejects Christ, read the book of Acts.
The condemnation is unbelief, just as John 3:18 says.

 

[Van]

Except that James 2:5 says that God chose the poor rich in faith, not that he chose the poor and rich in faith:

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

And there's also this:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Both verses once again prove conditional election based on some of the beliefs and characteristics of those chosen.

 

[Van]

Jesus said He knows His sheep, He calls them by name and then they follow Him. He said there were others, not of this fold (Jews) and He will call them as well.

He did not say once they follow Him, He gets to know their names and then He calls them.

Jesus told the religious men they did not believe because…… this is a clear cause and effect. They don’t believe because……. they are not of His sheep.

It doesn’t matter how you want to define “of” in this verse, it will not change the cause and effect described by Jesus.

peace to you

Yet another denial of the obvious. Yes, to be open to God's word is the cause of being considered "of My sheep."
And not being open to God's word is the cause of not being considered "of My sheep."

 

[Van]

All who are elected to be In Christ were elected before the world was
The foolish idea that anyone gets"placed" there during their lifetime is foreign to scripture.
Man does not have saving faith to be credited .....only in a gospel of another kind.

Fiction from start to finish.
1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we lived as "not a people" chosen by God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 says God puts us in Christ, i.e. you are in Christ by God's doing.
No one said man had "saving faith" before it was credited as righteousness, it was filthy rag faith.
Calvinism is "a gospel of another kind."

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Not everyone rejects Christ, read the book of Acts.

Acts also shows that individuals were "called" before they responded in faith:

Acts 2:37-39
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This agrees with the order found in Romans:

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Van]

Acts also shows that individuals were "called" before they responded in faith:

Acts 2:37-39
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This agrees with the order found in Romans:

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 1:22-24
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Once again the premise, that people were "chosen" individually before they believed the gospel message, is fiction.

Did you say not everyone rejects Christ? Certainly not clearly. Thus a denial of the book of Acts.
What did you mean when you said people were "called" before they believed, invited (right answer) or altered with enabling grace (wrong answer).

Lets consider Acts 2:39, "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (NASB)

Here we have yet another ambiguous verse. First does "the promise is for you, your children, and as many as the Lord invites" or does it mean "the promise is received by you, your children, and as many as the Lord relocates into Christ?"

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Did you say not everyone rejects Christ?

Every person, of their own will, ignores, or outright denies God's offer of life through belief.

This is true of all of us, until God "calls" us. And not every one is called.

What did you mean when you said people were "called" before they believed

I mean they were convicted by God. "Pricked in their heart". It's more than just an invitation, more like a summons. It's described as a call to be holy, a call to be saints. Essentially, a call to sanctification.

 

[Van]

Every person, of their own will, ignores, or outright denies God's offer of life through belief.

Thus you believe the fiction of total spiritual inability. However, Matthew 23:13 demonstrates people seeking God (in the preliminary process of entering the kingdom), thus your doctrine is unbiblical.

This is true of all of us, until God "calls" us. And not every one is called.

I mean they were convicted by God. "Pricked in their heart". It's more than just an invitation, more like a summons. It's described as a call to be holy, a call to be saints. Essentially, a call to sanctification.

Here you seem to be referring to another fiction, irresistible grace enabling people to believe and making them unwilling not to believe. However, Matthew 23:13 once again shows folks able to be entering, yet also able to be prevented from entering.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

"Total spiritual inability"?
Total unwillingness would be more accurate:

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

2 Peter 3:5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of Hithe water and in the water:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Here you seem to be referring to another fiction, irresistible grace enabling people to believe and making them unwilling not to believe. However, Matthew 23:13 once again shows folks able to be entering, yet also able to be prevented from entering.

No one is willing to "enter the kingdom", until after they have been "called" unto the kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 2:12
That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Also, God's call is resistable. But, just like a good Father calling his child, there is chastisement for disobedience. If an imperfect earthly Father can achieve obedience from his children, do you not think that God can, even more so?