Reconciling Paul, Hebrews and James

[canadyjd]

If you're going to be like some others and resort to false accusations this dialog will soon end. Maybe you're unable to come to grips with the fact that we are all, sheep and goats alike, going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive for the deeds done in the body:

10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

Maybe the unscriptural teaching of justification by faith 'alone' has left you ill prepared, skewed you, by not considering the works part of our justification, which God through His grace has also given us the hearts to do.



God 'shined in our hearts'. God 'writes His law in our hearts'. God 'circumcises our hearts'. He unconditionally chose us for this and there's NO WAY we could resist it or prevent it from happening.

Well, I don’t remember accusing you of anything. I’ve stated my belief that should works merit salvation, even in part. then salvation is no longer by grace.

Don’t take that personally.

We can, however, end the conversation before it gets personal, I’m fine with that.

Thanks for the discussion

peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have no perfect answer, but the answer definitely has to do with different dispensations: church age VS tribulation.

I understand that you would think that, and I'm sure you understand that I disagree.entirely.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There are two 'hearts' that Paul is writing about in Ro 2.

The 'hard and impenitent' heart...:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:


...and the circumcised heart with the law written upon it:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


God renders to each of these hearts according to (not because of) their works.

7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

The great point of Romans 2 is that it comes immediately before Romans 3. The whole point of Chapter 2 through to 3:20 is to point out that Jews are no better than Gentiles (Romans 2:12) and that both are guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20). Therefore, if anyone is to be saved, it will not be by works but by grace (Romans 3:21ff).

I have had a quick look at the occurrences of dikaioo, 'justify' in the N.T. and I cannot find anywhere that it says specifically that God Himself justifies the righteous. On the contrary, He justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5) and Christ died specifically for the ungodly (Romans 5:6; c.f. Mark 2:17) who were the very people He came for. Therefore, if anyone supposes that he is righteous in himself (contra Romans 7:18), he has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

So what about these Last Day judgement scenes like Matthew 25:31ff when it is works that justify or condemn those being judged? On that day, our works will justify us; they will declare us righteous in God's sight; they will be the evidence that God has justified us when we were still in our sins, given us new birth, a new heart and a new spirit, and written His righteous moral law upon out hearts.

In Exodus 23:7, God declares, "I will not justify the wicked," and He does not. Christ on the cross has paid the penalty for our sins; He was made sin, the very epitome of sin, and God punished our sin in Him, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. This is Luther's 'Great Exchange;' that there on the cross, all our sins were laid upon His sinless shoulders an His perfect righteousness and obedience were credited to us who believe (Romans 5:19).

This is absolutely vital. We can have nothing to do with the Roman Catholic conflation of justification with sanctification, nor with N.T. Wright's teachings which are only marginally better. But nor can we accept the antinomianism of those who suppose that having justified us by grace, God then leaves us to our own devices. No! Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ gave Himself for us that He might purify us from every lawless deed, and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works (Titus 2:14).

 

[kyredneck]

Well, I don’t remember accusing you of anything

Well, you have misrepresented me, whether intentionally or not, that I'm espousing a 'merit-based' salvation. I'm espousing scripture, which you seem to be unable to cope with. In no way shape fashion or form am I saying we are saved by works. Our justification is 100% by God's grace, NOT by the letter of the law.

 

[kyredneck]

-

 

[Yeshua1]

I did this already, here. You didn't participate. The bottom line is that the reconciliation is just too simple for you Reformed devotees to accept. It evidently isn't brought out or addressed plainly enough in the Reformed dogma that you adhere to.

Good works have nothing to do with being Justified and now having eternal life in Christ!

 

[kyredneck]

The great point of Romans 2 is that it comes immediately before Romans 3.

Yes I agree. 2 comes before 3.

The whole point of Chapter 2 through to 3:20 is to point out that Jews are no better than Gentiles (Romans 2:12) and that both are guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20).

Yes I agree. That is A point, but there's much more to be gleaned from Ro 2 than only that. "Jews are no better than Gentiles" is a consistent, oft repeated theme throughout the epistle.

I have had a quick look at the occurrences of dikaioo, 'justify' in the N.T. and I cannot find anywhere that it says specifically that God Himself justifies the righteous. On the contrary, He justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5) and Christ died specifically for the ungodly (Romans 5:6; c.f. Mark 2:17) who were the very people He came for. Therefore, if anyone supposes that he is righteous in himself (contra Romans 7:18), he has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

K.

So what about these Last Day judgement scenes like Matthew 25:31ff when it is works that justify or condemn those being judged? On that day, our works will justify us; they will declare us righteous in God's sight; they will be the evidence that God has justified us when we were still in our sins, given us new birth, a new heart and a new spirit, and written His righteous moral law upon out hearts.

K.

In Exodus 23:7, God declares, "I will not justify the wicked," and He does not. Christ on the cross has paid the penalty for our sins; He was made sin, the very epitome of sin, and God punished our sin in Him, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. This is Luther's 'Great Exchange;' that there on the cross, all our sins were laid upon His sinless shoulders an His perfect righteousness and obedience were credited to us who believe (Romans 5:19).

K.

This is absolutely vital. We can have nothing to do with the Roman Catholic conflation of justification with sanctification, nor with N.T. Wright's teachings which are only marginally better. But nor can we accept the antinomianism of those who suppose that having justified us by grace, God then leaves us to our own devices. No! Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ gave Himself for us that He might purify us from every lawless deed, and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works (Titus 2:14).

K. But the fact still remains that God is going to render to every man according to their works, period. This is crystal clear plain from scripture and it seems to me that you 'faith alone' people have taken an 'ostrich approach' to this and have pretended that it's not there. Well, it's there!

 

[tyndale1946]

Well, you have misrepresented me, whether intentionally or not, that I'm espousing a 'merit-based' salvation. I'm espousing scripture, which you seem to be unable to cope with. In no way shape fashion or form am I saying we are saved by works. Our justification is 100% by God's grace, NOT by the letter of the law.

AMEN!!!... Brother Glen... Three thumbs up for the three and one Godhead!!!... And three exclamation points for declaration.

 

[AustinC]

Well, you have misrepresented me, whether intentionally or not, that I'm espousing a 'merit-based' salvation. I'm espousing scripture, which you seem to be unable to cope with. In no way shape fashion or form am I saying we are saved by works. Our justification is 100% by God's grace, NOT by the letter of the law.

Every one of us are espousing scripture. The question is whether we are rightly understanding scripture.

I am happy to see you acknowledge that our salvation is 100% by grace. By grace, God gifts us with faith to believe that Jesus substitutional atonement has imputed his righteousness. Therefore we are justified by faith, apart from works of the flesh. The very letter you are quoting shares this truth in full as you read the entire letter. Sniping a few verses out of context is not a good way to establish theology.

 

[James65]

Romans 2:4-5. 'Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'

Ephesians 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.'

James 2:24. 'You se then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.......For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.'

Hebrews 11:17. 'By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.'

James 2:21. 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works his faith was made perfect?'

Hebrews 11:31. 'By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she received the spies with peace.'

James 2:25. 'Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?'

On another thread @kyredneck and I crossed swords over the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone. The question is, how do we reconcile the verses above? I intend to set out my understanding shortly, but I thought I'd open it up to others to post first.

I haven't posted anything from the Gospels. Readers may think of verses like Mark 5:38; Luke 7:9; John 3:16; 6:28-29; 7:37-38; 11:40 etc.

One thing that would help don’t stop at verse 9 in Ephesians 2, because the Apostle explains it will in verse 10:
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in. Ephesians 2:10

Paul state that we are not saved by our own works in Ephesians 2:8-9; but states in verse 10 in Christ Jesus we will do good works or basically the Holy Spirit will work in our life’s to produce His good work(s) or fruit. This is what James refers to as works that show true faith. Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:16-20.

Many believe that Hebrews 6:1-9 speaks of Christian falling from grace. But IMHO it speaks more to telling the difference between a true Believer and one who makes a false profession. For once again a verse 10, give great clearance to the subject:
For God is not unrighteousness to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His Name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrew 6:10
Here the true Believers are allowing God’s Spirit to produce His fruit(s) in their life.

 

[thomas15]

It is true that all Scripture is profitable but is it not interesting that James is addressed to the twelve tribes, a group that the reformed think has been replaced by...themselves.

Paul clearly states that we are saved by Gods grace through faith. The trick is to find a solution to the assertion that James teaches that works somehow play into salvation. If the reformed think that the solution is that the believer must perform works to prove that they have the free gift of salvation, then salvation is not a free gift of grace, it is the results of at least some small measure of works. While Biblically incorrect, the catholics are at least transparent where the reformed are subtle.

Personally I don't think any man can read the heart of another nor do I think any man is able to show works offered strictly for the glory of God. Moses, a man who accomplished much for the Kingdom was not immune to sin and thus faltered in this area. Daniel did not have a full understanding of the ways of God so I doubt that any of us, reformed or otherwise do either.

Jesus told the woman at the well that one day we will worship God in spirit and in truth. Speaking only for me, I get the truth from the words of Scripture. I don't think Scripture can avoid speaking about works since that is the default mode of worship of the natural man. It seems reasonable enough to me that if I can do a good work purely for the advancement of the kingdom with no tinge of self promotion then that work would be acceptable but who can really do that?

 

[AustinC]

It is true that all Scripture is profitable but is it not interesting that James is addressed to the twelve tribes, a group that the reformed think has been replaced by...themselves.

Paul clearly states that we are saved by Gods grace through faith. The trick is to find a solution to the assertion that James teaches that works somehow play into salvation. If the reformed think that the solution is that the believer must perform works to prove that they have the free gift of salvation, then salvation is not a free gift of grace, it is the results of at least some small measure of works. While Biblically incorrect, the catholics are at least transparent where the reformed are subtle.

Personally I don't think any man can read the heart of another nor do I think any man is able to show works offered strictly for the glory of God. Moses, a man who accomplished much for the Kingdom was not immune to sin and thus faltered in this area. Daniel did not have a full understanding of the ways of God so I doubt that any of us, reformed or otherwise do either.

Jesus told the woman at the well that one day we will worship God in spirit and in truth. Speaking only for me, I get the truth from the words of Scripture. I don't think Scripture can avoid speaking about works since that is the default mode of worship of the natural man. It seems reasonable enough to me that if I can do a good work purely for the advancement of the kingdom with no tinge of self promotion then that work would be acceptable but who can really do that?

Read Romans 9-11 and you will see there is no replacement. Such a label comes from those who do not understand the elective work of God. Both James and Paul are in perfect agreement. It is the legalist who misunderstands both and thus miss the gospel of grace expressed by both.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is true that all Scripture is profitable but is it not interesting that James is addressed to the twelve tribes, a group that the reformed think has been replaced by...themselves.

Paul clearly states that we are saved by Gods grace through faith. The trick is to find a solution to the assertion that James teaches that works somehow play into salvation. If the reformed think that the solution is that the believer must perform works to prove that they have the free gift of salvation, then salvation is not a free gift of grace, it is the results of at least some small measure of works. While Biblically incorrect, the catholics are at least transparent where the reformed are subtle.

Personally I don't think any man can read the heart of another nor do I think any man is able to show works offered strictly for the glory of God. Moses, a man who accomplished much for the Kingdom was not immune to sin and thus faltered in this area. Daniel did not have a full understanding of the ways of God so I doubt that any of us, reformed or otherwise do either.

Jesus told the woman at the well that one day we will worship God in spirit and in truth. Speaking only for me, I get the truth from the words of Scripture. I don't think Scripture can avoid speaking about works since that is the default mode of worship of the natural man. It seems reasonable enough to me that if I can do a good work purely for the advancement of the kingdom with no tinge of self promotion then that work would be acceptable but who can really do that?

Good works are the fruit and evidence that one has really been saved....

 

[Yeshua1]

Read Romans 9-11 and you will see there is no replacement. Such a label comes from those who do not understand the elective work of God. Both James and Paul are in perfect agreement. It is the legalist who misunderstands both and thus miss the gospel of grace expressed by both.

Both Jews and Gentiles saved by same Lord Jesus, both now part of true Israel of God!

 

[thomas15]

It seems to me that the mode of operation of the reformed crowd is to repeat the same thing over and over, offering up free lecture series to those who disagree with the hope that the opposition will throw up the white flag and the reformed crowd will thus win the war for the glorious cause of Calvinism.

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems to me that the mode of operation of the reformed crowd is to repeat the same thing over and over, offering up free lecture series to those who disagree with the hope that the opposition will throw up the white flag and the reformed crowd will thus win the war for the glorious cause of Calvinism.

How so my brother?

 

[AustinC]

It seems to me that the mode of operation of the reformed crowd is to repeat the same thing over and over, offering up free lecture series to those who disagree with the hope that the opposition will throw up the white flag and the reformed crowd will thus win the war for the glorious cause of Calvinism.

Would you rather be ignored?

The same truth keeps being shared and you keep throwing it away. Now where do you suppose the problem lies?

 

[canadyjd]

It seems to me that the mode of operation of the reformed crowd is to repeat the same thing over and over, offering up free lecture series to those who disagree with the hope that the opposition will throw up the white flag and the reformed crowd will thus win the war for the glorious cause of Calvinism.

And those who oppose the doctrines of grace presume to know what motivates the “reformed crowd”.

I “repeat” scripture over and over to further the cause of Christ in the world, not the “cause of Calvinism”

peace to you

 

[thomas15]

I could say the same exact thing in my defense

 

[canadyjd]

I could say the same exact thing in my defense

Im not questioning your motives. I’m not presuming to know your motives for making the comments.

You claim the “Calvinist crowd” is only concerned about the “cause of Calvinism”. That is untrue.

peace to you