Nonsense, there is no verse that says tools for wrath.
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Reconciling Two
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Total nonsense, false, wrong and evil.
best example of "proof" of Calvinist Soteriology would be Saul of tarsus, as started out hating Jesus and Christians, putting them to death, and yet this hating satanic inspired Pharisee got changed into greatest apostle of Lord Jesus, due to the working of the Holy Spirit
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I agree in the example of Paul. Where I caution Calvinists is that I just don't see the principle in scripture that those who do not get saved like Paul, or even like C.S. Lewis were not shown real grace by God. Grace that could have resulted in their salvation. This is where I think @Silverhair has a point. I think it is wrong to judge the amount of grace God must give and apply some standard of what we think is enough. And I think it is wrong to say that if the amount of grace given to each person is not equal then God is unfair. And, it is taught in scripture that we are cautioned not to reject any grace or calling we receive, or to harden ourselves or to consider ourselves wise or good, lest we be judicially hardened.
What I don't think is taught in scripture is that God, on his part, truly has set up most of humanity to be damned, and that this was done well before they were conceived, and that God has a natural animosity towards them that is original with God from the beginning of time. So I do believe that all men who hear the gospel are given enough grace that God can rightfully judge them if they reject the grace they have. The fact is most of us who are saved would agree, no matter what your theology, that God has acted towards us personally, with far more grace than was "owed" us and with far more patience and tolerance than we deserve. So we are kind of caught in a bind. On one hand, we don't dare say that the only reason I got saved and some other fella didn't was because I was more responsive and better. But at the same time, I just don't see in scripture arbitrary hatred of the person sitting next to you by God as the reason you are saved and not him. So in some things we have to bite our lips and be thankful.
Blank
Active Member
@DaveXR650 said, “Most of what little I know about Sandemanianism comes from reading Martyn Lloyd-Jones and he was of the opinion that they can be Calvinist or Arminian. I didn't mean to derail the thread but was just trying to say that saving faith is not the same as other areas in life where you might lay out the facts before you, evaluate the truth of them and then decide whether to believe or not.”
No worries, being a big fan of MLJ, (still know little of Sandemanianism) it would not be a derailment in my book
In actuality, this thread can be seen somewhat as between the Calvinist position and Armenian position as to how one comes to faith
No worries, being a big fan of MLJ, (still know little of Sandemanianism) it would not be a derailment in my book
In actuality, this thread can be seen somewhat as between the Calvinist position and Armenian position as to how one comes to faith
Rye
Active Member
Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
That would imply an invitation to every person universally if I isolated this verse. However, Jesus said other things right before that.
Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Notice the verse right before, Jesus says He is in charge of who He will reveal the Father to. Now you might still say that He's speaking to every person universally. If we go back a little further we'll see that's not necessarily the case.
Matthew 11:15 - He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Before He says everything that comes after this, it is clear that He's addressing only those who have the ability to hear. In other places, Jesus' tells us that not every person individually has the ability to hear.
John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Only those who are of God have the ability to hear. Many try to reverse it and say that you can choose to hear and then become of God but that is just not what the text says.
John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jesus, referring to the OT, says that those who have the ability to hear are the ones who have been taught of God. The Father is the one who teaches. Lost people can't teach themselves.
Agreed. And if you think about it, a Calvinist and an Arminian are in the same boat really. Neither can read a person's heart and know for sure if they are confessing true faith. All we can do is share the Gospel with everybody and accept it as genuine if they say they believe.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Yes. Back in post 33 I addressed that by citing both passages. The case that Jesus was in general saying to anyone who would come to him, the only qualification being that they labor and are heavy laden, is not my private interpretation but is supported by notables like J.C. Ryle.
Here's the whole quote from the excellent book "Old Paths"
"You may tell me that you have no right to accept this invitation, because you do not know that you are one of God's elect. I answer
that you have no right to put words in Christ's mouth, which he has not used. He does not say "come unto me all ye that are elect"
He addresses all the "labouring and heavy laden ones", without any exception. Are you one of them? Is there weight within on your
soul? This is the only question you have to decide. If you are, you are one of those to whom Christ speaks".
This is very close to what you said in your post:
When the Bible refers to those who hear, see, or desire to come to God, that is the same as saying that you feel heavy laden and I agree it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I sometimes think Calvinism, in some forms, though camps so hard on this as being a limitation put on many people by God out of an inherent animosity toward the non-elect that he has derived for his own good pleasure from long before they were even thought of. I know this because that is what they literally say in their teaching. I do not agree with that and neither do many theologians like Ryle.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Your claim is false. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say people were chosen from the beginning (before creation) for salvation. In order to be chosen through "belief in the truth" the people had to exist and have faith in the truth. That precludes your bogus view. "From the beginning" refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
IMO, you probably didn't even need to start a thread to discuss the differences;
As it is, there's been a mountain of discussion about it on this forum over the years, and plenty in prior threads just in the "Calvinism vs Arminianism" section here on the Baptist Board...
So much so, that you could have gone through it all at your leisure, and found probably every answer to every question you might have had.
But I've also found that discussions "in real time" can be overly helpful, especially if one doesn't want to "plow through that much snow to get to the pavement", if you understand the analogy.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Blank
Basically put, one side either sees the contents of "F.A.C.T.S" ( or a modified version of it ) when they read the Scriptures , or they see what's summarized in the "T.U.L.I.P." as seen here:
carm.org
www.so4j.com
evangelicalarminians.org
Basically put, one side either sees the contents of "F.A.C.T.S" ( or a modified version of it ) when they read the Scriptures , or they see what's summarized in the "T.U.L.I.P." as seen here:
Calvinism & Arminianism: comparison table | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.
carm.org
CALVINISM VS ARMINIANISM COMPARISON - SO4J
Calvinism vs Arminianism Comparison Chart & Videos on Election, Tulip, Five Points of Calvinism: Predestination & being Chosen vs Free-Will. John MacArthur videos.
www.so4j.com
An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism - Society of Evangelical Arminians
An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. the TULIP of Calvinism by Brian Abasciano and Martin Glynn (To view this outline in a chart that sets the two positions side by side rather than first one and then the other, please see this attachment: FACTS vs. TULIP Chart. For a full description of the
evangelicalarminians.org
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Blank
Also, you'll find that there are people who have "switched sides" ( on both sides ) over the years, having started out on one side and ending up on the other.
But what I've rarely found, is that there are very few who have become one or the other simply by picking up the Bible and studying it for themselves;
With absolutely no help from anyone.
I've actually met one in the past 47 years since coming to Christ at the age of 12 in 1978;
I hope that you have better success than I have.
At the end of the day,
Most professing Christians that I've met, whether in established assemblies of professing believers or not, follow what a man or group of men have taught them for most, if not all, of their lives;
Never going beyond what their local church or denomination teaches on any subject.
Also, you'll find that there are people who have "switched sides" ( on both sides ) over the years, having started out on one side and ending up on the other.
But what I've rarely found, is that there are very few who have become one or the other simply by picking up the Bible and studying it for themselves;
With absolutely no help from anyone.
I've actually met one in the past 47 years since coming to Christ at the age of 12 in 1978;
I hope that you have better success than I have.
At the end of the day,
Most professing Christians that I've met, whether in established assemblies of professing believers or not, follow what a man or group of men have taught them for most, if not all, of their lives;
Never going beyond what their local church or denomination teaches on any subject.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Blank
Active Member
I agree generally. The problem with face to face discussions is that I’m full of questions and people will start taking it the wrong way, and even get offended.But I've also found that discussions "in real time" can be overly helpful, especially if one doesn't want to "plow through that much snow to get to the pavement", if you understand the analogy.
Blank
Active Member
I am definitely one to pick the tulips@Blank
Basically put, one side either sees the contents of "F.A.C.T.S" ( or a modified version of it ) when they read the Scriptures , or they see what's summarized in the "T.U.L.I.P." as seen here:
Calvinism & Arminianism: comparison table | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Explore Christian Apologetics, theology, and critical answers to today's questions about God, the Bible, and the Christian faith at Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.CALVINISM VS ARMINIANISM COMPARISON - SO4J
Calvinism vs Arminianism Comparison Chart & Videos on Election, Tulip, Five Points of Calvinism: Predestination & being Chosen vs Free-Will. John MacArthur videos.An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism - Society of Evangelical Arminians
An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. the TULIP of Calvinism by Brian Abasciano and Martin Glynn (To view this outline in a chart that sets the two positions side by side rather than first one and then the other, please see this attachment: FACTS vs. TULIP Chart. For a full description of the
Blank
Active Member
Well, here I am #2. I first came across the concept of predestination and election reading Ephesians 1 in 1975. The problem was I was going to an Arminian Baptist Church at the time and came across a lot flack ever since. Years later, I ended up in a Reformed Baptist Church, Yet still struggle over some of these issues. I also have conservative Lutheran leanings.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That's one of the reasons why I don't speak much to professing Christians, at least outside of knowing them personally.
Any impersonal conversations I have now are either kept brief, or confined strictly to correspondence like forums or e-mails.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
For me it was Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 2 Thessalonians 2 when a friend gave me 3 verses to look at in 2003.
After going back over the context of each chapter, I slowly began to realize that I was in a very small minority indeed.
That's when I found that people like me are often associated with the teachings of some guy named John Calvin;
I'd never heard of him before then, and had never been exposed to any of the Scriptures that talked about election, predestination, calling and so forth.
I was a member of a "Provisionist" ( basically teach 4 of the 5 points of modern Arminianism, except for holding to "Eternal Security" ) independent Baptist church until roughly 2007. Haven't much been inside of a traditional church with pews and the like since then.
That is why I encourage people to dig deeply into His words...
In my experience, there's nothing quite like ignoring everything one's been taught by men, taking it all back to Scripture and simply trusting the Lord to do the teaching.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
Yes, regardless of what some on here say, it does say that God, from the beginning, chose people to salvation.
I clearly see it saying that it ( the choosing ) was through ( not because of ) sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.
If it were because of, it would violate Romans 11:5-6, mixing man's efforts with God, and polluting His act of grace.
It also says that "whereunto", or "to which" that salvation He called them by Paul's Gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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