Reconciling Two

[Van]

Even though scriptures states God created and made some as tools for/of wrath?
That Jesus for the sins of the many, but not for the all?

Nonsense, there is no verse that says tools for wrath.

 

[Van]

Paul defines the Babes as Babes in Christ, nothing to do with still lost sinners

Total nonsense, false, wrong and evil.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. Lewis is a good example of one who is apprehended by Christ. At one point he says this, "For the first time I examined myself with a seriously practical purpose. " And there I found what appalled me; a zoo of lusts, a bedlam of ambitions, a nursery of fears, a harem of fondled hatreds. My name was Legion". My argument is that this is a result of the Holy Spirit pursuing you and not something you can sit down and evaluate as you would a set of proposals. You cannot come to those conclusions about yourself on your own.

best example of "proof" of Calvinist Soteriology would be Saul of tarsus, as started out hating Jesus and Christians, putting them to death, and yet this hating satanic inspired Pharisee got changed into greatest apostle of Lord Jesus, due to the working of the Holy Spirit

 

[DaveXR650]

best example of "proof" of Calvinist Soteriology would be Saul of tarsus, as started out hating Jesus and Christians, putting them to death, and yet this hating satanic inspired Pharisee got changed into greatest apostle of Lord Jesus, due to the working of the Holy Spirit

I agree in the example of Paul. Where I caution Calvinists is that I just don't see the principle in scripture that those who do not get saved like Paul, or even like C.S. Lewis were not shown real grace by God. Grace that could have resulted in their salvation. This is where I think @Silverhair has a point. I think it is wrong to judge the amount of grace God must give and apply some standard of what we think is enough. And I think it is wrong to say that if the amount of grace given to each person is not equal then God is unfair. And, it is taught in scripture that we are cautioned not to reject any grace or calling we receive, or to harden ourselves or to consider ourselves wise or good, lest we be judicially hardened.

What I don't think is taught in scripture is that God, on his part, truly has set up most of humanity to be damned, and that this was done well before they were conceived, and that God has a natural animosity towards them that is original with God from the beginning of time. So I do believe that all men who hear the gospel are given enough grace that God can rightfully judge them if they reject the grace they have. The fact is most of us who are saved would agree, no matter what your theology, that God has acted towards us personally, with far more grace than was "owed" us and with far more patience and tolerance than we deserve. So we are kind of caught in a bind. On one hand, we don't dare say that the only reason I got saved and some other fella didn't was because I was more responsive and better. But at the same time, I just don't see in scripture arbitrary hatred of the person sitting next to you by God as the reason you are saved and not him. So in some things we have to bite our lips and be thankful.

 

[Blank]

@DaveXR650 said, “Most of what little I know about Sandemanianism comes from reading Martyn Lloyd-Jones and he was of the opinion that they can be Calvinist or Arminian. I didn't mean to derail the thread but was just trying to say that saving faith is not the same as other areas in life where you might lay out the facts before you, evaluate the truth of them and then decide whether to believe or not.”

No worries, being a big fan of MLJ, (still know little of Sandemanianism) it would not be a derailment in my book
In actuality, this thread can be seen somewhat as between the Calvinist position and Armenian position as to how one comes to faith

 

[Blank]

I’m glad this thread got off of me and onto more of a discussion between the two major views. That was my initial hope.

 

[Rye]

As Ryle said, Jesus did not say come unto me all ye that are elect, but heavy laden. The only qualification necessary is to see your need (which I believe is from the Holy Spirit).

Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

That would imply an invitation to every person universally if I isolated this verse. However, Jesus said other things right before that.

Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Notice the verse right before, Jesus says He is in charge of who He will reveal the Father to. Now you might still say that He's speaking to every person universally. If we go back a little further we'll see that's not necessarily the case.

Matthew 11:15 - He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Before He says everything that comes after this, it is clear that He's addressing only those who have the ability to hear. In other places, Jesus' tells us that not every person individually has the ability to hear.

John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Only those who are of God have the ability to hear. Many try to reverse it and say that you can choose to hear and then become of God but that is just not what the text says.

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus, referring to the OT, says that those who have the ability to hear are the ones who have been taught of God. The Father is the one who teaches. Lost people can't teach themselves.

Anyone who does believe is indeed among the elect and were known to God. But the warrant and invitation to believe is also in scripture and it's benefits are promised to anyone who will do so.

Agreed. And if you think about it, a Calvinist and an Arminian are in the same boat really. Neither can read a person's heart and know for sure if they are confessing true faith. All we can do is share the Gospel with everybody and accept it as genuine if they say they believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

That would imply an invitation to every person universally if I isolated this verse. However, Jesus said other things right before that.

Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Yes. Back in post 33 I addressed that by citing both passages. The case that Jesus was in general saying to anyone who would come to him, the only qualification being that they labor and are heavy laden, is not my private interpretation but is supported by notables like J.C. Ryle.

Here's the whole quote from the excellent book "Old Paths"
"You may tell me that you have no right to accept this invitation, because you do not know that you are one of God's elect. I answer
that you have no right to put words in Christ's mouth, which he has not used. He does not say "come unto me all ye that are elect"
He addresses all the "labouring and heavy laden ones", without any exception. Are you one of them? Is there weight within on your
soul? This is the only question you have to decide. If you are, you are one of those to whom Christ speaks".

This is very close to what you said in your post:

Agreed. And if you think about it, a Calvinist and an Arminian are in the same boat really. Neither can read a person's heart and know for sure if they are confessing true faith. All we can do is share the Gospel with everybody and accept it as genuine if they say they believe.

When the Bible refers to those who hear, see, or desire to come to God, that is the same as saying that you feel heavy laden and I agree it is the work of the Holy Spirit. I sometimes think Calvinism, in some forms, though camps so hard on this as being a limitation put on many people by God out of an inherent animosity toward the non-elect that he has derived for his own good pleasure from long before they were even thought of. I know this because that is what they literally say in their teaching. I do not agree with that and neither do many theologians like Ryle.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Van

1) No human was chosen for salvation, or to be a people for God's own possession before they existed "not as a people"

False, 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Van]

@Van
False, 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Your claim is false. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say people were chosen from the beginning (before creation) for salvation. In order to be chosen through "belief in the truth" the people had to exist and have faith in the truth. That precludes your bogus view. "From the beginning" refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.