Reconciling Two

[Blank]

For me it was Ephesians 1, Romans 8 and 2 Thessalonians 2

What was it in 2Thes-2? that aided in turning you? Often, my pre-trib rapture friends use it to bolster their case.

That's when I found that people like me are often associated with the teachings of some guy named John Calvin;

I still hold out on their view of the Sacraments (along with Lutherans baptismal regeneration)

In my experience, there's nothing quite like ignoring everything one's been taught by men, taking it all back to Scripture and simply trusting the Lord to do the teaching.

Having been steeped in humanistic evolution, I concur.

 

[Dave G]

What was it in 2Thes-2? that aided in turning you?

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

My last post which Brightfame was told didn't say that people were chosen to salvation before the foundation of the world by another member in this thread.

 

[Dave G]

Often, my pre-trib rapture friends use it to bolster their case.

Which part of 2 Thessalonians 2...this one?

" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

Hmm...."except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".
This passage tells me that first the man of sin is revealed, and after that the Lord comes again.

To me, that agrees exactly with what the Lord said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when He says that first will come the abomination of desolation where Anti-Christ will be revealed, sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God...
Then the Tribulation, then Christ comes again.

The only thing not mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the tribulation...otherwise the order is exactly the same.
So, I don't see anywhere in 2 Thessalonians 2 that a person could arrive at a Pre-Trib second coming, if read carefully.

 

[Dave G]

I still hold out on their view of the Sacraments (along with Lutherans baptismal regeneration)

"hold out on"?
As in "hold to", or disagree with?

 

[37818]

Here are two passages I have trouble with, how would you reconcile them?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 11:25 (KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

If God is not willing that any perish, why does He hide certain things from certain people?
What is the best explanation without there being a contradiction on God's part?

The short answer. 2 Peter 3:9 gives reasons for Matthew 11:25.
Also Proverbs 3:7, . . . Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, . . .

 

[Blank]

Which part of 2 Thessalonians 2...this one?

" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

Hmm...."except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".
This passage tells me that first the man of sin is revealed, and after that the Lord comes again.

To me, that agrees exactly with what the Lord said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when He says that first will come the abomination of desolation where Anti-Christ will be revealed, sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God...
Then the Tribulation, then Christ comes again.

The only thing not mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the tribulation...otherwise the order is exactly the same.
So, I don't see anywhere in 2 Thessalonians 2 that a person could arrive at a Pre-Trib second coming, if read carefully.

I was never a biggie on eschatology (soteriology is my preference, because it's central). I see most of it as speculation, until the event actually comes to pass (maybe that's why preterists and I never see eye to eye. It's just not my cup of tea.

 

[Blank]

"hold out on"?
As in "hold to", or disagree with?

disagree with.

 

[Blank]

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

My last post which Brightfame was told didn't say that people were chosen to salvation before the foundation of the world by another member in this thread.

???

 

[Blank]

The short answer. 2 Peter 3:9 gives reasons for Matthew 11:25.
Also Proverbs 3:7, . . . Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, . . .

Please explain. I agree with Pro 3.7. but.."2 Peter 3:9 gives reasons for Matthew 11:25."??

Deuteronomy 29:29 ASV
The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[37818]

Please explain. I agree with Pro 3.7. but.."2 Peter 3:9 gives reasons for Matthew 11:25."??

Deuteronomy 29:29 ASV
The secret things belong unto Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I am not perceiving the difficulty.

In short I see no difficulty.

Where all statements are not in disagreement.

 

[37818]

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 11:21, Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Jesus referred to the the mighty works He had done in His day, being done back then in their day.

 

[Van]

2 Peter 3:9 is expressing the idea God will allow (being longsuffering) the period between His first appearance and His second coming to be long to afford the opportunity for many people to be chosen for salvation during their lifetime.
The second verse (Matthew 11:25) addresses progressive revelation. God did not reveal, by kept concealed, facets of His plan for His redemption of a people to be chosen for His own possession. Since even today, people disagree on just what the plan is, so it is still a mystery or a partial mystery to some or all of us.
We, who live in the post New Testament period have sufficient revelation to "be reconciled" to God. But we all do not understand and embrace that revelation such that God reconciles us. Those among the reconciled have the calling to be effective witnesses for Christ, and help lead the lost to Christ.
I think the contrast between "babes" who are open to learning, and the "wise and prudent" who reject the gospel because it does not fit with their presuppositions. is a point we all need to consider.

 

[Blank]

I am not perceiving the difficulty.

In short I see no difficulty.

Where all statements are not in disagreement.

In short, basically it is, if God is not willing that any should perish, why would he hide certain things from the 'wise and prudent'?

 

[Blank]

2 Peter 3:9 is expressing the idea God will allow (being longsuffering) the period between His first appearance and His second coming to be long to afford the opportunity for many people to be chosen for salvation during their lifetime.

So a 20 year old dies without Christ come while an 80 year old lives long enough to accept Christ? Is this fair?

The second verse (Matthew 11:25) addresses progressive revelation. God did not reveal, by kept concealed, facets of His plan for His redemption of a people to be chosen for His own possession. Since even today, people disagree on just what the plan is, so it is still a mystery or a partial mystery to some or all of us.

How can it be progressive revelation, when it is hidden from the wise and prudent?

I think the contrast between "babes" who are open to learning, and the "wise and prudent" who reject the gospel because it does not fit with their presuppositions. is a point we all need to consider.

How can we say some are open to learning, when...

Romans 3:9-12 (KJV) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Van]

So a 20 year old dies without Christ come while an 80 year old lives long enough to accept Christ? Is this fair?

How can it be progressive revelation, when it is hidden from the wise and prudent?

How can we say some are open to learning, when...

Romans 3:9-12 (KJV) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1) 2 Peter 3:9 provides for a long period to provide the opportunity for people to be saved. You asked if that was fair, but did not offer an alternate view of the verse. Far be it for me to consider any plan of God "unfair."

2) Yes, your observation is valid, the verse does not directly address progressive revelation. But Luke 10:24 falls within the context of the parallel passage. So yes, things were hidden in the past from the wise and prudent, but were being revealed in the present to those not blinded by presupposition.

3) Your apparent understanding of being "under sin" because none of us always understand how not to sin, and more than that, none of us always seek God, which is a sin, results in the mistaken, out of context, claim scripture teaches no one ever seeks God, when verse after verse teaches that they do!

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave G

I clearly see it saying that it ( the choosing ) was through ( not because of ) sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.

Salvation here Dave isnt eternal salvation, but spiritual conversion salvation, salvation from false beliefs and lies, to belief of the Truth, of the Gospel.. Remember how they turned from idols ? 1 Thess 1:9

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

So its an aspect of Salvation that the Spirit effects, however its all streaming from the merits of the death of Christ.

 

[Blank]

3) Your apparent understanding of being "under sin" because none of us always understand how not to sin, and more than that, none of us always seek God, which is a sin, results in the mistaken, out of context, claim scripture teaches no one ever seeks God, when verse after verse teaches that they do!

I don't believe Scripture would be wrong on this point. It's more of a point that we are covered by the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Romans 3 refers more to those outside of Christ or Christ's rejectors

 

[Dave G]

Salvation here Dave isnt eternal salvation

Is there any other kind than either :

1) God saving someone from His wrath and eternal punishment, or
2) God saving someone from physical harm and evil ( calamity ) that life can bring, or that His enemies could bring upon His children?

Again, I clearly see it saying that it's eternal salvation through those two things.
That didn't come to me yesterday, Brightfame....I knew what it said in 2003, and that understanding hasn't changed over the past two decades.
I am open to it being understood differently, but if I'm to change my mind about it, I'm equally sure that the Lord will set me straight.

BTW, it's OK if we disagree on occasional things here and there.
Thanks for your perspective.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave G

Is there any other kind than either :

To my understanding, its only one Salvation, but it has different phases,

The Eternal Phase, The Legal Phase, the Spiritual Phase, the Glorified Phase, God is its author from Eternity to Eternity

 

[Dave G]

disagree with.

Well, that makes two of us.

I don't agree with the principle of "sacraments" ( sacred elements ) as to me, it comes from a misunderstanding of the Scriptures pertaining Christ's body and blood.
Some denominations see their partaking of them as being both physical and spiritual, such as Roman Catholics.
From reading articles and forum posts over the years, they seem to believe that the elements are imbued with His actual body and blood when they are blessed by a priest.

I agree with most who the RCC considers as "protestants", specifically old time Baptists, who hold that they are symbolic of His body that was broken for us, and His blood that was shed for us as His children.

That's how I personally understand all the Scriptural passages that mention them.