Reconciling Two

[JesusFan]

3) Your apparent understanding of being "under sin" because none of us always understand how not to sin, and more than that, none of us always seek God, which is a sin, results in the mistaken, out of context, claim scripture teaches no one ever seeks God, when verse after verse teaches that they do!

If you are willing to edit my statements like you did above, there is no point in attempting discussion. I was specifically addressing mistaken interpretation.

Then you again did not answer my question, but unhelpfully said you did not say.

Lastly you make a claim all of Romans somehow mysteriously supports your bogus claim. Again I see no point of continuing.

Both Isaiah and peter disagree that sinners seek after the Lord!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

they then would deny that God in any sense would truly desire that "all men" would be saved.

There's no Book on that.

So they must then look at a passage like 2 Peter 3:9 has to only refer to the elect, with no message at all to everyone else.

If they were in there, that would be one thing. They're not.

Whereas I think that the right answer, and the true Calvinist position is that 2 Peter 3:9 applies to everyone and yet does not deny "election" of individuals.

The Promise isn't made to "everyone", and to not die, or not "perish", is not a Desire God has for "everyone".

there are NO real Calvinists that deny original sin and that our salvation is totally dependent upon the working of the truine God to redeem us, as the father draws/calls us to Jesus, all those given by the Father are those who he died for and as a substitionary sin offering for, and all of them who were chosen and elected by grace of God convicted and regenerated unto salvation by Holy Spirit

HALLAOOYAH!!​

HALLAOOYAH!!​

HALLAOOYAH!!​

YAH! YAH! YAH!!!

Lewis also wrote that He heard many times the gospel , talked about what the bible teaches, disregrading it all pretty much, but one day walked to Oxford as Atheist and retuned back home a Christian, as he was persuaded and convicted by the Holy Spirit finally and got saved that very day

HALLAOOYAH!!​

C. S. Lewis

There is a wonderful video here, with C.S. Lewis material; ​

The Prayer That Stops the Narcissist – God Fights for You.​

I can't believe it has that man-made philosophy repeated in it 5 or 6 times where it is saying,
God is "not willing that any should perish".,
which is so unfortunate, rather than what The Lord teaches in the Bible;

"The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise, as some men count slackness;
but is Longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to Repentance".

Even, if someone 'wanted to say',
"The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise," TO EVERYONE,
WE CAN'T, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

It doesn't say, "The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise," TO EVERYONE,

THEREFORE, IT ISN'T SAYING,
God is "not willing that any", OF 'EVERYONE' , "should perish"
AS IF HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ASSUMED TO HAVE MADE HIS PROMISE TO EVERYONE, should perish",
since He didn't make His Promise to Everyone.

It says, "The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise,..."
but is Longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,"

WHO? ANY OF "USWARD", NOT "ANY" OF EVERYONE,
Because The Lord's Promise wasn't to EVERYONE/ "ANY".

Again, its using the "us-ward" as the antecedent to "any", as if it were extra-worded like this;

"The Lord is not slack concerning His Promise,..."
but is Longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any of "us-ward" should perish".

If you are a Calvinist there is no need to turn something like 2 Peter 3:9 into a chilling exclusionary statement that leaves out a lot of mankind.

The "us-ward" are the only ones He is talking to, or about.
No other application, or stretch to be speaking about "everyone" in there is made, or implied,
So, there is no need to bring them up.

The "not perish", but come to "repentance", is for saints who already are saved, to "repent" and "not die".

They had already experienced the "repentance" of the New Birth and were never going to "perish", in The Lake of Fire.

That Jesus for the sins of the many, but not for the all?

Correct. That what the Bible teaches, as the Eternal plan of salvation.

If this doesn't teach, "He Shall Save His people from their sins", what does it teach?

Matthew 1:21; "And she shall bring forth a Son,
and thou shalt call His Name JESUS: for He Shall Save His people from their sins".

"Jesus", The Savior, "SHALL SAVE...HIS PEOPLE...FROM....THEIR SINS".

Lewis is a good example of one who is apprehended by Christ.

HALLAOOYAH!!​

You cannot come to those conclusions about yourself on your own.

HALLAOOYAH!!​

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The reason I say that is that the teaching of even high-Calvinists, like John Owen, and certainly Fuller and Lloyd-Jones and most reformed modern Baptists was that there is a warrant given by God that anyone who comes to Christ will be received and saved.

So no reconciliation is necessary between verses that present the warrant for anyone to believe and verses that show the role of God in his sovereignty.

But the warrant and invitation to believe is also in scripture and it's benefits are promised to anyone who will do so.

I want to temper "warrant" and "invitation", by wrappinging it in the words of Gill here, below *,
where he specifies the "restriction" that is placed upon all who actually do "come unto Me", as Jesus says.

Adapted from original Gill, at: Matthew 11 Gill's Exposition

Matthew 11:27;
"All things are Delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,

and he to whomsoever the Son Will Reveal Him.


Matthew 11:28;
"Come unto Me,

"it is to be understood of believing in Christ, the going of the soul to Him, in the exercise of Grace on Him,
of desire after Him, love to Him, Faith and Hope in Him: believing in Christ, and coming to Him, are terms synonymous, John 6:35;

"And Jesus said unto them, I Am the Bread of Life:
he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that Believeth on Me shall never thirst."

"Those who come to Christ aright, come as sinners, to a full, suitable, able, and willing Savior;

"Those who come to Christ aright, come as Repentant sinners and Venture their souls upon Him,
and Trust in Him for Righteousness, Life, and Salvation, which they are encouraged to do,

"by this kind "Invitation";

"which shows His Willingness to Save, and His Readiness to Give Relief to distressed minds.

*"The persons invited, are not "all" the individuals of mankind, but with a restriction,"

THE RESTRICTION JESUS HAS FOR COING TO HIM
IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL'S SOUL MUST BE CHARACTERIZED
AS BEING ONE WHO IS AMONG THOSE WHO ARE INCLUDED IN
WHO JESUS SAYS ARE:
"all ye that labour and are heavy laden'

"all ye that labour, and are heavy laden"; meaning, not these who are labouring in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with iniquity, and insensible of it: these are not weary of sin, nor burdened with it;

"nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls;

THE RESTRICTION JESUS HAS FOR COING TO HIM
IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL'S SOUL MUST BE CHARACTERIZED
AS BEING 'such who groan, being burdened with the guilt of sin upon their consciences,
and are pressed down with the unsupportable yoke of the law, and the load of human traditions;

"and have been laboring till they are weary, in order to obtain peace of conscience, and rest for their souls,
by the observance of these things, but in vain.

"These are encouraged to come to Him, lay down their burdens at His Feet, look to,
and lay hold by Faith on His Person, Blood, Righteousness, and Sacrifice;

"when they should enjoy that True Spiritual Consolation, which could never be attained to by the works of the law."

"And I Will Give you Rest;"

"Spiritual Rest here, Peace of Conscience, Ease of mind, Tranquillity of soul,
through an Application of Pardoning Grace, a view of Free Justification by the Righteousness of Christ,
and Full Atonement of sin by His Sacrifice;

"and Eternal Rest hereafter, in Abraham's bosom, in the Arms of Jesus,
in Perfect and Uninterrupted Communion with Father, Son, and Spirit."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Van]

I am not too worried about being 'under sin' when I know Christ's righteousness and His blood covers all that.

Reread Romans one and two to get a better idea of Man's depravity

Sorry for whatever.

What's your question again?

If you're presuppositional viewpoint sees it as bogus perhaps it would be that's not to continue.

Like so many Calvinists, your post reveals your heart.

 

[JesusFan]

Like so many Calvinists, your post reveals your heart.

We are born as lost sinners, and none seek after God, all spiritually dead in sins and trespasses

 

[Van]

We are born as lost sinners, and none seek after God, all spiritually dead in sins and trespasses

Yes, your post reveals your heart, too.l

 

[Van]

Folks, God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan which is choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, and not just for those who were or will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1. 1 John 2:2. This election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have been "not a people" chosen for God's own possession.
Those saved are assigned a "holy calling" to be ambassadors for Christ, begging the lost to be reconciled to Christ.

The above is the actual gospel of Christ, but denied by those whose traditions make God's word to no affect.

 

[JesusFan]

Folks, God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan which is choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, and not just for those who were or will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1. 1 John 2:2. This election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have been "not a people" chosen for God's own possession.
Those saved are assigned a "holy calling" to be ambassadors for Christ, begging the lost to be reconciled to Christ.

The above is the actual gospel of Christ, but denied by those whose traditions make God's word to no affect.

The saving faith of the redemned came from God Himself, so why would he credit as as meriting favor due to what he already done to and for us?

 

[DaveXR650]

I think almost everyone believes that those who are saved are the "elect". Therefore any statement in the scripture in any way involved with anyone getting saved is going to be referring to the elect as final beneficiaries. But unless you believe that the elect are already saved and that all that really happens in a person's life is that at some point they come to the knowledge that they are the elect then the above posts are incorrect.

Those who are not of the above persuasion, and this includes most Calvinists, believe that all the people who we call elect were indeed lost sinners prior to being saved and in no way distinguishable from all the rest except in the secret knowledge of God. So the statement "that God is not willing that any should perish" is addressed to everyone that hears it. Of course, those who respond are elect, but the warning/invitation was general and to everyone. So why would you want to temper warrant and invitation if found in scripture by the words of Gill?

I want to temper "warrant" and "invitation", by wrappinging it in the words of Gill here, below *,
where he specifies the "restriction" that is placed upon all who actually do "come unto Me", as Jesus says.

And then, surprisingly, below that you say, in a complete contradiction:

"all ye that labour and are heavy laden'

"all ye that labour, and are heavy laden"; meaning, not these who are labouring in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with iniquity, and insensible of it: these are not weary of sin, nor burdened with it;

"nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls;

THE RESTRICTION JESUS HAS FOR COING TO HIM
IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL'S SOUL MUST BE CHARACTERIZED
AS BEING 'such who groan, being burdened with the guilt of sin upon their consciences,
and are pressed down with the unsupportable yoke of the law, and the load of human traditions;

"and have been laboring till they are weary, in order to obtain peace of conscience, and rest for their souls,
by the observance of these things, but in vain.

"These are encouraged to come to Him, lay down their burdens at His Feet, look to,
and lay hold by Faith on His Person, Blood, Righteousness, and Sacrifice;

"when they should enjoy that True Spiritual Consolation, which could never be attained to by the works of the law."

"And I Will Give you Rest;"

Of course. As the song sung in Reformed Churches: Come Ye Sinners Poor and Needy, says, all that is required is that you feel your need of Him.
That is what happens to a lost person prior to them being saved and if that is the case then the message in 2Peter 3:9 is general. The fact that not all respond does not mean the message is not for everyone. The fact that many don't repent does not mean that God is lying when it is said that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Now I can't tell, with all the colors and font size changes if the above is your fault, or Gill's. But whoever it is, you go directly against what J.C. Ryle says using the same scriptures. Namely, that Jesus did not say "come unto me all ye that are elect, but heavy laden", and he meant that as a direct challenge to the hyper-Calvinistic interpretation you are giving it. Invitations are general, warnings are general, the unfolding of it all is according to God's plan and purpose. Be careful about putting up limitations that are not there.

 

[Van]

How could someone be not a people if they were chosen to be God's own possession before creation? They could not. All these posts claiming otherwise do not address the reality of 1 Peter 2:9-10.

They change "not a people" into "did not know they were a people. I kid you not, every verse that proves Calvinism is a load of malarkey is rewritten such that it no longer means what it says.

Folks, God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan which is choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, and not just for those who were or will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 2:2. This election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have been "not a people" chosen for God's own possession.
Those saved are assigned a "holy calling" to be ambassadors for Christ, begging the lost to be reconciled to Christ.

The above is the actual gospel of Christ, but denied by those whose traditions make God's word to no affect.






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[JesusFan]

How could someone be not a people if they were chosen to be God's own possession before creation? They could not. All these posts claiming otherwise do not address the reality of 1 Peter 2:9-10.

They change "not a people" into "did not know they were a people. I kid you not, every verse that proves Calvinism is a load of malarkey is rewritten such that it no longer means what it says.

Folks, God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan which is choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, and not just for those who were or will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 2:2. This election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have been "not a people" chosen for God's own possession.
Those saved are assigned a "holy calling" to be ambassadors for Christ, begging the lost to be reconciled to Christ.

The above is the actual gospel of Christ, but denied by those whose traditions make God's word to no affect.






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Van, Paul and all of the apostles preached and held to real Calvinism, not to the false strawman version you keep raining against

 

[Blank]

How could someone be not a people if they were chosen to be God's own possession before creation? They could not. All these posts claiming otherwise do not address the reality of 1 Peter 2:9-10.

They change "not a people" into "did not know they were a people. I kid you not, every verse that proves Calvinism is a load of malarkey is rewritten such that it no longer means what it says.

Folks, God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan which is choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. Thus Christ provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, and not just for those who were or will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 2:2. This election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have been "not a people" chosen for God's own possession.
Those saved are assigned a "holy calling" to be ambassadors for Christ, begging the lost to be reconciled to Christ.

The above is the actual gospel of Christ, but denied by those whose traditions make God's word to no affect.






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Van, how would you answer these verses?

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[JesusFan]

Van, how would you answer these verses?

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Being Non Calvinist would be based upon God foreknowledge of our faith, yet He also holds to God limiting Himself to no t knowing atimes until actually happens?

 

[Blank]

Being Non Calvinist would be based upon God foreknowledge of our faith, yet He also holds to God limiting Himself to no t knowing atimes until actually happens?

If he chooses us according to His foreknowledge, wouldn't that mean, that there is something in us worthy or merit-wise to choose us,... such as faith?

 

[JesusFan]

If he chooses us according to His foreknowledge, wouldn't that mean, that there is something in us worthy or merit-wise to choose us,... such as faith?

Yes, would be mixing grace and good works

 

[Blank]

Yes, would be mixing grace and good works

Then we could feel pretty good about ourselves, pat ourselves on the back, and say "I am glad I had faith".

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Then we could feel pretty good about ourselves, pat ourselves on the back, and say "I am glad I had faith".

EXACTLY RIGHT!!

Something you are saying, then, to the effect of wording like,

"so that man can boast".

However, I'm going to say that would be in direct opposition to plain Scripture.

Doubt certain people want to talk about that, though.

Makes me begin to think of them as maybe being frauds. Quacks. And unprincipled Counterfeiters.

How far off am I?