Reconciling Two

[Blank]

3) Yes, not everyone who hears the gospel is able to understand it,

Why is that?

 

[Blank]

Try taking it in context with what we are told in the prior verses.
For example:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).


Who do you see are the "us-ward", the "any" and the "all"?

Believers, but why are they believers?

 

[Dave G]

I see Judgment in vs.7

I see that the "us-ward" the "any" and the "all" in verse 9 is describing the "beloved" in verse 8.

 

[Dave G]

Believers, but why are they believers?

Keep studying, my friend.

Again, the Lord has a lot to say about many things, and I'd prefer that you find the answers for yourself, rather than me telling you.
That way, you can trust and rely on what He says in the Scriptures, and not another person's take on them.

I will say this:

The answer to that question can be found in both the Gospels and in the epistles to the churches.

 

[Van]

Why is that?

See Matthew 13 and the four Soils. Some are so hardened they do not even understand the gospel. Some only embrace the gospel superficially, but lack a deep root (making a deep commitment to follow Christ) and others do not make Christ the overriding priority of their life.

Another fact is the happenstance of birth. I was born into a Christian family, my parents believed in Jesus Christ, took me to Sunday School, and lived their lives according to their understanding of scripture. But what if I had been born to atheists, or those committed to another religion? My chance of being open to God's word would be demolished. All we can do is to boldly, plainly and clearly present our understanding of the gospel with kindness and perseverance, trusting that God will cause the increase.

 

[Rye]

Some are so hardened they do not even understand the gospel.

Van, let me ask you, if a person hasn't already been hardened by God, would you at least say that God has permitted them to be stuck in their hardened state?

I know that you would say that God tries to save everyone equally but at what point is a person so hardened that it’s too late for them? I don’t see how God can fail to save a person because of varying degrees of hardness.

Another fact is the happenstance of birth. I was born into a Christian family, my parents believed in Jesus Christ, took me to Sunday School, and lived their lives according to their understanding of scripture. But what if I had been born to atheists, or those committed to another religion? My chance of being open to God's word would be demolished.

That is an excellent point you made. Let me also ask you this, do you and I have grounds to boast in the fact that God gave us an advantage that many others don't have? Are you and I so much more spiritually intelligent than the atheist that we chose to turn to Christ and the atheist chose to reject Christ?

I have talked to many atheists who genuinely seem like nice, intelligent people and are even open to the possibility of the existence of a god. They would tell me that they don’t believe in the Bible because they don’t see proof or it isn’t scientifically accurate. Couldn’t you say that they are making an honest mistake that is going to have eternal consequences? I see the Gospel message and God’s grace working in a more powerful way than that.

 

[Silverhair]

Agreed, but that is a two-way street. (Arminian leaners as well as Calvinist leaners.)

I agree and that is why so many errors creep into peoples understanding of God's word.

FYI I do not agree with either of those views.

 

[Blank]

Keep studying, my friend.

So you can say why some believe and others don't?

 

[Silverhair]

So you can say why some believe and others don't?

Earlier you asked "Believers, but why are they believers?"

Why does one believe anything? I would say it is because they hear or read something and then make a choice of whether they trust the source and whether they believe the information they have received.

Ask yourself, "why do I believe the gospel message". Be honest with yourself.

I do not think anyone can say why one person believes and another does not or even why they made the choice they did.

 

[DaveXR650]

Why does one believe anything? I would say it is because they hear or read something and then make a choice of whether they trust the source and whether they believe the information they have received.

That is exactly how you believe the bare facts about something. If you read that Toyota is bringing back the V6 engine you just decide on your own whether the facts are true and you're done. If that's what your Christian faith consists of most would say that is not saving faith.

For saving faith you must "see" the truth of your sin and standing before God, realize your inability to fix the situation, and see the value of Christ as a savior. These things are not easily worked up by yourself and require more than an intellectual exercise.

 

[Blank]

For saving faith you must "see" the truth of your sin and standing before God, realize your inability to fix the situation, and see the value of Christ as a savior. These things are not easily worked up by yourself and require more than an intellectual exercise

Yes and that would take a Mt11:25 or a Mt 16:17 type of thing, which to me, is hard to reconcile with 2Pet 3:9.

 

[Van]

Van, let me ask you, if a person hasn't already been hardened by God, would you at least say that God has permitted them to be stuck in their hardened state?

I know that you would say that God tries to save everyone equally but at what point is a person so hardened that it’s too late for them? I don’t see how God can fail to save a person because of varying degrees of hardness.



That is an excellent point you made. Let me also ask you this, do you and I have grounds to boast in the fact that God gave us an advantage that many others don't have? Are you and I so much more spiritually intelligent than the atheist that we chose to turn to Christ and the atheist chose to reject Christ?

I have talked to many atheists who genuinely seem like nice, intelligent people and are even open to the possibility of the existence of a god. They would tell me that they don’t believe in the Bible because they don’t see proof or it isn’t scientifically accurate. Couldn’t you say that they are making an honest mistake that is going to have eternal consequences? I see the Gospel message and God’s grace working in a more powerful way than that.

Hi Rye, not sure of the point of your post. Your first question simply addresses God's sovereignty. My definition is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God either caused or "permitted" the specific condition of a person being receptive to the gospel.

As to your premise "God tries to save everyone equally" I am not familiar with the verse or verses that teach that doctrine.

As far as boasting, we both know God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. So the point of your question (possibly, for I am not sure) is to present the old Calvinist chestnut that if a person does anything to facilitate their salvation, that is ground for a "works based" salvation. It is hogwash. Faith is according to grace. Romans 4

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes and that would take a Mt11:25 or a Mt 16:17 type of thing, which to me, is hard to reconcile with 2Pet 3:9.

Be careful. While is does take a work of the Holy Spirit for us to realize and understand the value of coming to Christ that does not mean that the net is not cast far and wide and that 2Peter 3:9 means what the simplest and most obvious interpretation is. Always read in context - Matthew 11:25 also has 11:28. See Spurgeon's sermon no. 1997 for the view of that general section of 2 Peter by a Calvinist with his head on straight.

 

[JesusFan]

So are you saying some are more depraved than others?( ‘in their pride rejected’ )

Non cals must beleive this, as only way to reconcile for them that all hear same gospel, only some respond to it, and must be due to them better "beter"

 

[JesusFan]

Hello Brother Blank. Great question.

I'll provide an understanding of these texts from a reformed perspective.

2 Peter 3:9 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The 'any' in this verse refers to the 'beloved' who are believers. It is not referring to all people universally. If God has given His grace to any of the elect, that means that He is not willing that any of them should perish but instead come to repentance and they most definitely will do so.

As for the other text you mentioned...

Matthew 11:25-27 - At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The Father hides wisdom and understanding from the natural man who, because of their fallen nature, are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

God has determined who will get mercy and who will get justice. Nobody will get injustice. When you look at it from this point of view, you'll see that there is no need for reconciliation but rather there exists great harmony between these texts. I'm sure others will try to refute my argument and I will let you make up your mind about what makes the most sense to you.

God bless.

many times we must define in context the intended meaning, as when NT states all, world, none must see in that the truth that many times refers to the elect of Christ, as all intended to come to Christ, to get saved, shall indeed

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Rye, not sure of the point of your post. Your first question simply addresses God's sovereignty. My definition is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God either caused or "permitted" the specific condition of a person being receptive to the gospel.

As to your premise "God tries to save everyone equally" I am not familiar with the verse or verses that teach that doctrine.

As far as boasting, we both know God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. So the point of your question (possibly, for I am not sure) is to present the old Calvinist chestnut that if a person does anything to facilitate their salvation, that is ground for a "works based" salvation. It is hogwash. Faith is according to grace. Romans 4

ALL of us van are already born as lost sinners, at war against God, so God doers not have to do anything to have us all remove lost and hell bound, but grace is that any of us equally spiritually dead ever get saved

 

[Rye]

As to your premise "God tries to save everyone equally" I am not familiar with the verse or verses that teach that doctrine.

I think I have read you say on multiple occasions that every individual has the opportunity to change the outcome of their destiny. If you have not said that, forgive me, I was away for a little while.

Regardless, some will say that every individual is on equal ground to either accept or reject the Gospel message. My argument is that’s not necessarily the case. As you said before, you were born into a Christian family so God had already given you a head start. God did not give that same advantage to an atheist born into an atheist family. If that’s the case, does everyone really have an equal chance?

 

[Dave G]

So you can say why some believe and others don't?

Yes, I can.
I can tell you what I see God's word saying in many places, but I'll give you some Scriptures...
and if you're willing, let me know how you see them:

" And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." ( Acts 13:44-49 ).

" And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one." ( John 10:22-30 )

 

[Silverhair]

That is exactly how you believe the bare facts about something. If you read that Toyota is bringing back the V6 engine you just decide on your own whether the facts are true and you're done. If that's what your Christian faith consists of most would say that is not saving faith.

For saving faith you must "see" the truth of your sin and standing before God, realize your inability to fix the situation, and see the value of Christ as a savior. These things are not easily worked up by yourself and require more than an intellectual exercise.

That would be the information that one has received. What do you think the gospel message is? It informs you of your sinful condition and the need of a savior.

 

[DaveXR650]

That would be the information that one has received. What do you think the gospel message is? It informs you of your sinful condition and the need of a savior.

You sound like Gordon Clark and the Sandemanians, both of which are Calvinists, by the way. The gospel is a set of propositions, but intellectual assent to the set of propositions does not do justice as an explanation of saving faith. One reason is that if you are human belief in something will have an effect on you in accordance with your perception of what it truly means. The bare naked facts of the gospel because of what the gospel means will be received differently as truth than knowledge of a set of new facts of indifferent importance. Just like you would react differently to belief that you won a dozen donuts as compared to winning 50 million dollars. True, the intellectual exercise is the same as far as your brain is concerned, but you should doubt yourself as to whether you really believed it if the reaction was the same.

Another reason "Why does one believe anything" doesn't work for the gospel is that belief in the gospel requires a prior work on our souls or else we will not see the importance of the propositions. This is not the case with believing other things. In believing other things either the knowledge is indifferent to us or we have a natural ability to understand our need to take the thing proposed seriously. If I am a refugee and they tell me I can find food at a certain location that knowledge is important to me and good news because of my natural ability to be hungry and my understanding that I need food. When people hear the gospel their natural state is to think the proposals are foolish or that they are doing OK on their own, already. In a sense, you are technically right in that if they would believe they could be saved, but they see no reason to worry themselves with doing so.