Recreational drug use

[Jope]

Conscience plays a big role in the Christian (Rom. 14:23). If the Christian can't drink in clean conscience and in moderation, he should abstain. If a Christian can drink in clean conscience (and in moderation), he shouldn't do it around someone whose conscience can't.

"Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ" (1 Cor. 8:12, ESV).

"It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves" (Rom. 14:21-22, ESV).​

"For if anyone sees you who have knowledge [drinking wine], will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to [drink wine]? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died" (1 Cor. 8:10-11, ESV).

 

[Zaac]

1. I'll bet that was a real Christian testimony to the police who thought you were drunk enough in the first place that they required you to do those tests.

2. It would have been a fantastic testimony to any new Christian believer, or for that fact any Christian at all that would have been riding with you.

3. If others were riding with you and you were drunk enough to be pulled over; drunk enough to go through their "tests" what would others with you think of their safety?

4. What would your family think of your safety once you got home?

5. How many lives did you put in danger on the way home?

The very fact that you were pulled over at all, coupled with the fact that they made you get out of the car and go through a battery of tests, is about the most embarrassing and shameful thing that I can think of for a Christian. Your testimony as Christian witness was ruined that day.

I have been in the ministry for over 30 years. I have never been pulled over by thy police for drinking--or for any reason at all for that matter--never.

Exactly DHK. I'm telling you , I think we have produced a generation of Christians who do not care about what their witness looks like because they aren't using it anyway. When you're self-centered and all about what your Christian liberty will let you do as opposed to what it allows you to do for others to God's glory, you pretty much don't need a Christian witness.

I had such a discussion with someone who calls himself a Christian about his witness and alcohol and any other drug. I asked how do you witness the need for a Savior to people when they see you, even moderately, doing the same things that they are doing? He said he's not trying to be a witness.

And I think that is the same thing that's going on with a lot of folks who call themselves Christians. They don't care about their witness especially when personal holiness impedes upon their desire to be personally self-indulgent.:tear:

 

[InTheLight]

I'm very impressed by your pre-judgment of my situation. You know NOTHING about the circumstances that led me to be pulled over. Let me clear up your prejudices for you.

1. I'll bet that was a real Christian testimony to the police who thought you were drunk enough in the first place that they required you to do those tests.

Wasn't drunk in the least, wasn't buzzed, was completely sober. I had ONE beer before a dinner at a restaurant and ONE more beer during my meal. I would estimate that I got pulled over 2 1/2 hours after I had my first sip. I got pulled over for not completely stopping at a traffic signal on the on-ramp of a freeway at 9:00 at night.

2. It would have been a fantastic testimony to any new Christian believer, or for that fact any Christian at all that would have been riding with you.

My wife was with me, she's a Christian, and she was outraged at the actions the police took.

3. If others were riding with you and you were drunk enough to be pulled over; drunk enough to go through their "tests" what would others with you think of their safety?

Wasn't drunk, wasn't buzzed, was sober. Stop jumping to conclusions.

4. What would your family think of your safety once you got home?

Happened before I had children. My family was with me. She was mad the cops put me through the ordeal.

5. How many lives did you put in danger on the way home?

Zero lives were in danger.

The very fact that you were pulled over at all, coupled with the fact that they made you get out of the car and go through a battery of tests, is about the most embarrassing and shameful thing that I can think of for a Christian. Your testimony as Christian witness was ruined that day.

LOL. You have no clue, none. Have you ever been pulled over by the police for any reason? If so, that "is about the most embarrassing and shameful thing that I can think of for a Christian. Your testimony as Christian witness was ruined that day. "

I have been in the ministry for over 30 years. I have never been pulled over by thy police for drinking--or for any reason at all for that matter--never.

I wasn't pulled over for drinking. I was pulled over because I made a rolling stop at a traffic signal that I know is never used at this time of the day (9:00 pm). These traffic lights are used during rush hours to meter the number of cars that can enter the freeway in order to a regulate traffic congestion. I use this particular freeway ramp several times a week and they are never activated after say, 6:30 at night. There's no need for them because by that time rush hour is over. BTW, this is right next to the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN, the largest shopping center in the U.S.A.

I'm entering the on-ramp and I'm wondering why the light up ahead is red. I start to brake, get down to around 5 mph, and can see there is no traffic whatsoever on the freeway so I roll through the red light. Here comes the police car out of hiding and I get pulled over. I would have rolled through that red light if I had water instead of beer with my dinner. Having beer had nothing to do with my decision.

Understand that the default position for police on a Friday night is to assume drivers are drunk. So the first thing they asked me was not, "Do you know why I'm pulling you over", instead it's "have you been drinking tonight?" What am I going to do, lie and say I haven't had anything? As soon as I answered, "I've had a couple of beers", it's automatic--I'm asked out of my vehicle and given the battery of tests. My breathalyzer test didn't even register and I passed all of their physical tests superbly. Try saying the alphabet backwards aloud, right now, and see if you can do it without stumbling in less than 15 seconds.

You accused me of being drunk. I expect an apology.

 

[Born Again]

Not sure about the actual numbers but I would say partakers cause less brothers to stumble than preachers (and others) that incorrectly teach that drinking is a sin. After all, if the correct theology was taught--drunkenness is a sin, having a drink is not--there would be no weaker brothers on this issue!

That question was intended to be a personal question for the partakers on this forum to ponder or answer.

1 Corinthians 8:13 "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble."

How many partakers, being observed by their brothers, have caused one of their brothers to stumble?

 

[saturneptune]

1. I'll bet that was a real Christian testimony to the police who thought you were drunk enough in the first place that they required you to do those tests.

2. It would have been a fantastic testimony to any new Christian believer, or for that fact any Christian at all that would have been riding with you.

3. If others were riding with you and you were drunk enough to be pulled over; drunk enough to go through their "tests" what would others with you think of their safety?

4. What would your family think of your safety once you got home?

5. How many lives did you put in danger on the way home?

The very fact that you were pulled over at all, coupled with the fact that they made you get out of the car and go through a battery of tests, is about the most embarrassing and shameful thing that I can think of for a Christian. Your testimony as Christian witness was ruined that day.

I have been in the ministry for over 30 years. I have never been pulled over by thy police for drinking--or for any reason at all for that matter--never.

So you have never been pulled over, whoop tee do. The two are not even comparable. You are in Canada under their laws, and the other situation is in the United States under our laws and the individual state laws. I can think of many things that are more embarrassing, like a local church gossip, or a 400 pound preacher.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

1. I'll bet that was a real Christian testimony to the police who thought you were drunk enough in the first place that they required you to do those tests.

2. It would have been a fantastic testimony to any new Christian believer, or for that fact any Christian at all that would have been riding with you.

3. If others were riding with you and you were drunk enough to be pulled over; drunk enough to go through their "tests" what would others with you think of their safety?

4. What would your family think of your safety once you got home?

5. How many lives did you put in danger on the way home?

The very fact that you were pulled over at all, coupled with the fact that they made you get out of the car and go through a battery of tests, is about the most embarrassing and shameful thing that I can think of for a Christian. Your testimony as Christian witness was ruined that day.

I have been in the ministry for over 30 years. I have never been pulled over by thy police for drinking--or for any reason at all for that matter--never.

So many are so bent on their "liberty" to consume alcohol that they don't truly care about their testimony before the lost.

Gregory Perry said it well when he pointed out the fact that every time one of these "moderation" advocates purchase an alcoholic drink, they put that much more money into the coffers for sales of that vile beverage to be put into the hands of wife abusers, child molesters, pedestrian killers, etc..

It truly is a bad witness for anyone who is a Christian to defend alcohol. Thanks, DHK.

 

[InTheLight]

So many are so bent on their "liberty" to consume alcohol that they don't truly care about their testimony before the lost.

I got pulled over for a minor traffic violation. No one outside of my wife, who's already a Christian, saw me drink or if they saw me drink cared that I did so. As to the police do you think it wise to witness during a traffic citation?

 

[Jope]

So my question is if you hold that drinking is acceptable is it also acceptable to smoke a joint or take a pill or shoot up or snort small amounts as long as the person does not get high?

I don't think that drugs should be done for recreational use. Tobacco smoke used to be used for a remedy for the cold, in moderation. Now it is used for recreation and look at the problems that arise because of its recreational use (Isa. 47:9).

I think that medication is good (Pr. 17:22), but shouldn't be used for recreation (cf. Gal. 5:20, "pharmakeia").

"medicinal evacuations, if carried to an extreme, are dangerous"

Hippocrates. Aphorismi. (Trans. Charles Darwin Adams, 1868). Section 1. Part 3.​

Here's also some Plato:

diseases unless they are very dangerous should not be irritated by medicines, since every form of disease is in a manner akin to the living being, whose complex frame has an appointed term of life. For not the whole race only, but each individual — barring inevitable accidents — comes into the world having a fixed span, and the triangles in us are originally framed with power to last for a certain time, beyond which no man prolong his life. And this holds also of the constitution of diseases ; if any one regardless of the appointed time tries to subdue them by medicine, he only aggravates and multiplies them. Wherefore we ought always to manage them by regimen, as far as a man can spare the time, and not provoke a disagreeable enemy by medicines.

Timaeus. (360 B.C.E.). Translated by Benjamin Jowett. Para. 120.

I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with everything here by Plato, by the way. I would like to study more into philosophy of medication actually. I find the last sentence in the quote intriguing.

 

[InTheLight]

So you have never been pulled over, whoop tee do. The two are not even comparable.

C'mon, Saturneptune, don't you know that these people throwing stones are better Christians than us?

I can think of many things that are more embarrassing, like a local church gossip, or a 400 pound preacher.

Paraphrasing a Winston Churchill quote:

Holier than Thou Fat Baptist Preacher: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Sir, you are fat. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I got pulled over for a minor traffic violation. No one outside of my wife, who's already a Christian, saw me drink or if they saw me drink cared that I did so. As to the police do you think it wise to witness during a traffic citation?

Something gave the officer the reason to put you through those tests. Either your actions, or the smell of alcohol on your breath.

Cops don't give those tests unless they suspect alcohol or smell alcohol.

 

[DHK]

So you have never been pulled over, whoop tee do. The two are not even comparable. You are in Canada under their laws, and the other situation is in the United States under our laws and the individual state laws. I can think of many things that are more embarrassing, like a local church gossip, or a 400 pound preacher.

No, the laws aren't even comparable. And that is too bad. Before you say such things look them up. I have. Here they are:
First, every state in America tolerates 0.08% blood alcohol level. That is how much alcohol you are allowed in your blood before they will ticket you.

That is not the law here. They changed it. They raised the bar, or lowered the limit. IOW the limit now is only 0.05%. Unlike America if you have 0.07% you will get a ticket.
But groups like MADD are pushing for stricter laws yet--no toleration--that is 0.0%. Drinking and driving don't mix. They believe that people ought to have a "designated driver" for those that have been drinking, that is one who has not touched a drop of alcohol whatsoever.

Yes, I do know the laws. I have lived in the U.S. driven in the U.S. had most of my post-secondary education in the U.S. But I don't drink, and for good reason. It seems as if you don't know about the laws "being different here."

 

[saturneptune]

No, the laws aren't even comparable. And that is too bad. Before you say such things look them up. I have. Here they are:
First, every state in America tolerates 0.08% blood alcohol level. That is how much alcohol you are allowed in your blood before they will ticket you.

That is not the law here. They changed it. They raised the bar, or lowered the limit. IOW the limit now is only 0.05%. Unlike America if you have 0.07% you will get a ticket.
But groups like MADD are pushing for stricter laws yet--no toleration--that is 0.0%. Drinking and driving don't mix. They believe that people ought to have a "designated driver" for those that have been drinking, that is one who has not touched a drop of alcohol whatsoever.

Yes, I do know the laws. I have lived in the U.S. driven in the U.S. had most of my post-secondary education in the U.S. But I don't drink, and for good reason. It seems as if you don't know about the laws "being different here."

I do not drink either. I have not been pulled over in almost twice you time in the ministry. Well give me a gold star. Thank you for the lesson on Canada's law. I did not know what Canada's limit was and really do not care. They are just another foreign country.

 

[Gina B]

Talk to any officer who has been one for long enough or has half a brain and he/she will tell you that every single person is a lawbreaker if you watch them long enough.
If an officer wants to pull you over, all he/she has to do is continue to follow you and eventually, you will break a law. The laws are designed so that eventually, an officer can pull over a person lawfully for an infraction if they feel they need to check you out for something. Read your driver's handbook for your state. Can you seriously follow every rule every time? Do you turn your blinker on exactly x amount of feet before you turn? Is it possible to judge that? You may legally be stopped for so very much, so don't believe you are not breaking the law every time you get into your vehicle. Technically, you very likely break some law every day of your life. (ever see a plea deal? they can come up with fifty charges out of one issue, it'll blow your mind, and it's technically legal)

ANYHOW! Back to drugs.

It got me that someone brought up pairing alcohol with one type of food, etc.. It sounds nice! Wow! So it's classy? That makes it better? One doesn't have to smoke marijuana and yes, there are different strains with different results, odors, and nuances in them. Why not make a salad with this one vs that, if one wants to make being classy part of it?

But...it doesn't matter how much you dress it up. Drugs are drugs.

Wait. Alcohol is a drug. Marijuana is a ... I guess it's an herb that can be used as a drug. It's just a lot more useful when you think about the plant itself, since you can do so much with the plant! Cereal, cellophane, oil, canvas, perfume, used to make baskets, dynamite, ethanol...can't really do that with grape vines!

So when you think about it, maybe marijuana is a lot more classy. If people quit being so paranoid about this plant given to us for good by our Creator and used this natural thing, we could have the above listed stuff for a decent price with this simple to grow plant. It's good for medicine. Good for food. Good for canvas. Good for weaving stuff. Good for making clothes. Good for making your car run. Good for making perfume.

Sounds pretty classy to me! With all that left over money from wise use of resources, one could go to a really classy place for a date night with their spouse. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[InTheLight]

Something gave the officer the reason to put you through those tests. Either your actions, or the smell of alcohol on your breath.

Cops don't give those tests unless they suspect alcohol or smell alcohol.

Ya know, I think it was the part where he asked me, "Have you been drinking tonight.?" and I truthfully answered "yes." That might have done it...

Newsflash to teetotalers: Anybody that commits a traffic violation on a Friday or Saturday night is going to get asked if you have been drinking. Yes, even you. Anyone that answers in the affirmative is going to be tested.

This is especially true a stone's throw outside of the several dozens of restaurants in and outside the Mall of America.

 

[InTheLight]

It got me that someone brought up pairing alcohol with one type of food, etc..

That was me.

It sounds nice! Wow! So it's classy? That makes it better?

Yes, yes it does. A good glass of wine with good food is enjoyable.

One doesn't have to smoke marijuana and yes, there are different strains with different results, odors, and nuances in them. Why not make a salad with this one vs that, if one wants to make being classy part of it?

Facetiousness noted.

But...it doesn't matter how much you dress it up. Drugs are drugs.

Wait. Alcohol is a drug. Marijuana is a ... I guess it's an herb that can be used as a drug. It's just a lot more useful when you think about the plant itself, since you can do so much with the plant! Cereal, cellophane, oil, canvas, perfume, used to make baskets, dynamite, ethanol...can't really do that with grape vines!

Reminds me of coffee. Coffee is a plant that contains caffeine. Caffeine is a drug. Caffeine can be enjoyed moderately. Certain types of coffee compliment certain foods. So all you hypocrites can throw away your coffee and quit that filthy, Christian witness destroying drug. Oh, wait...you say you only drink a little bit? Not enough to get buzzed? Too bad. You're ruining your witness and making weaker brothers stumble. QUIT DRINKING COFFEE!!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

You Must Be Kidding....Right?

So you hope someone drinks and drives. Nice.

This thread would have gotten a hearty amen from the Pharisees. Fact is God not only permits drinking, but has encouraged it. Denying that shows spiritual immaturity.

No...I do NOT hope that ANYBODY (saved or lost) drinks and drives...BUT IF THEY DO I hope they get CAUGHT. Let me also take the opportunity to also include other drug users in that catagory as well. I don't want them on the road putting innocent people at risk.

And...are you really trying to tell me that if I don't drink I'm less spiritual than you or somebody that does....REALLY?

It's a shame cause I have nothing against you brother....but I'm gonna have a real problem taking you seriously from here on. :tear: Sorry.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Gina B]

In The Light, please don't choke on what I'm about to say! :tongue3:

I do really get annoyed with caffeine being out there and used. I drink decaf, though my husband drinks caffeine and I end up drinking it sometimes by default, but I really think that at the least, it should be classified as a drug and unable to be purchased by minors, the same as alcohol.

I used to drink a lot of caffeine and when I quit, it was pretty life changing. I had NO CLUE how much it really affected me until I quit!

They do when they put it in medication. Since then, I actually quit using caffeine except as a drug, and as a drug, I use it to treat headaches. It works pretty good for that. I also use it to go to sleep. One cup of caffeinated coffee and I'm out.

A cup of caffeinated soda also does some bouncy kids with certain mental health issues a world of good in calming them down. Caffeine IS a drug. You can see a world of difference when a student who does NOT have those issues has a soda before class though, and it is not good! It's horrible and shouldn't happen.

 

[InTheLight]

In The Light, please don't choke on what I'm about to say! :tongue3:

I do really get annoyed with caffeine being out there and used. I drink decaf, though my husband drinks caffeine and I end up drinking it sometimes by default, but I really think that at the least, it should be classified as a drug and unable to be purchased by minors, the same as alcohol.

I used to drink a lot of caffeine and when I quit, it was pretty life changing. I had NO CLUE how much it really affected me until I quit!

They do when they put it in medication. Since then, I actually quit using caffeine except as a drug, and as a drug, I use it to treat headaches. It works pretty good for that. I also use it to go to sleep. One cup of caffeinated coffee and I'm out.

A cup of caffeinated soda also does some bouncy kids with certain mental health issues a world of good in calming them down. Caffeine IS a drug. You can see a world of difference when a student who does NOT have those issues has a soda before class though, and it is not good! It's horrible and shouldn't happen.

I totally get that caffeine is a drug, as is alcohol. I maintain that alcohol can be used in moderation. I maintain that caffeine can be used in moderation. Cocaine, marijuana, herion, uppers, downers, etc. cannot be used in moderation.

Your stance on caffeine and alcohol is consistent. I can respect that. I can't respect people that say you can't drink alcohol in moderation even as they live out the moderation principle every day with their two or three cups of coffee.

 

[Judith]

Address it with God for what? It's His word. There's nothing to address.:laugh:

We're supposed to strive for personal holiness as our Father in heaven is holy. And in that achieved personal holiness, God is glorified.

In today's culture, there simply is NOTHING positive that comes from Christians being known for engaging in the same things as the lost world.

Forget about the illegal drugs. There are enough Christians popping presciption pain pills to dwarf the illegal ones.

We watch the same crap on tv and in the movies.

We listen to the same crap on the radio.

We let our kids wear the same skimpy clothing.

We do it all because we are more concerned with entertainment and personal pleasure than we are with personal holiness.

We do it because we're extremely selfish individuals more concerned with personal pleasure and what we want than we are with personal holiness and seeing other folks saved.

Christians justify their use of alcohol and and a whole lot of other stuff because we are just extremey selfish and love us much more than we pretend to love Jesus.

Well said. :thumbsup:

 

[Gina B]

Wow, I thought I'd be slammed right and left already by everyone for the caffeine thing. That didn't happen. Yay! :flower: