Redemption From Sodomy

[Phillip]

You cannot argue with a man who went to a liberal college and was brain washed not to believe the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. It is futile.

The only thing we can do is keep them from becoming leaders in our churches. End of discussion.

Jesus will settle the rest when we all face him and explain whether or not we spent our time spreading blasphemy or His Word.

 

[JamesJ]

Well said Brother Phillip. AMEN.

 

[new man]

As to "redefining" what "homosexual" means, that is at the heart of the discussion. Many NT scholars (like Robin Scroggs) contend that the context in which Paul was writing only addressed temple prostitution and a very common, Greek form of institutionalized pedophilia.

I contend (and I believe Poat-It does as well) that the biblical authors never addressed the issue of monogamous, adult homosexuality because it wasn't on their radar. Likewise educated, independent women and a world without slavery.

Your contention is merely contentious and nothing more. Your hero Scroggs uses the same fatally flawed argument that Boswell used. This argument has been refuted by numerous scholars, two of which I have provided links to. Your liberal anti-christian arguments are tired, old, and worthless. Your contention that monogamous adult homosexuality, independent women, and a world witout slavery not being "on the biblical writers radar,"is also fatally flawed because you deny the power of God to speak through His prophets and to preserve His revelation of His will and nature to man exactly as He saw fit to.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:19-21).

Yes, by your words you deny the power of God, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God, to your own peril. The word is replete with admonishments warning believers about these very things. So at no extra charge, I will quote a few of them for the edification of the saints.

You love evil rather than good, falsehood rather than speaking the truth (Psalm 52:3).

The visions of your prophets were false and worthless; they did not expose your sin to ward off your captivity. The oracles they gave you were false and misleading (Lamentations 2:14).

Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says'-when the LORD has not spoken (Ezekiel 22:28).

The idols speak deceit, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain. Therefore the people wander like sheep oppressed for lack of a shepherd (Zechariah 10:2).

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves (Matthew 7:15).

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect–if that were possible (Mark 13:22).

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves (2 Peter 2:1).

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1).

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 3-7).

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. (2 Peter 2:1-19).

Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears (Acts 20:28-30).

Let's look at some of the key traits of false prophets / teachers / shepherds.

</font>

• 1) They lie.
  2) They do not expose sin.
  
  3) They love evil rather than good.
  
  4) They whitewash evil deeds.
  
  5) They are godless.
  
  6) They are disguised as sheep.
  
  7) They introduce destructive heresies.
  
  8) They subvert the grace of God.
  
  9) They blaspheme.
  
  10) They distort the truth.
  
  11) They despise authority.
  
  12) Their words are empty.
  
  13) They appeal to the desires of the flesh.
  
  14) They promise freedom.
  
  15) They are slaves of depravity.
  
  16) They never stop sinning.
  
  17) They make up stories.
  
  18) They are bold and arrogant.
  
  19) They have wandered away from the truth.
  
  20) They deny the Lord.</font>

Anyone here resemble this?

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by new man:
Let's look at some of the key traits of false prophets / teachers / shepherds.

[*]1) They lie.2) They do not expose sin.
3) They love evil rather than good.
4) They whitewash evil deeds.
5) They are godless.
6) They are disguised as sheep.
7) They introduce destructive heresies.8) They subvert the grace of God.9) They blaspheme.10) They distort the truth.11) They despise authority.12) Their words are empty.13) They appeal to the desires of the flesh.14) They promise freedom.15) They are slaves of depravity.
16) They never stop sinning.17) They make up stories.18) They are bold and arrogant.19) They have wandered away from the truth.20) They deny the Lord
Anyone here resemble this?[

No, no one here, but it does look like it describes about 95% of the American Public. And 95% of the English public.

So get the fires buring and stones polished up.

 

[post-it]

De 23:17 makes it pretty clear what a sodomite is held to be. Scripture contrasts the meaning against a female prostitute. So it means a Male Prostitute. Yes, some male prostitues have sex with men, that too is wrong because all of a prostitutes sex is outside marriage.

But Sodomite it clearly must be tied to the act of prostitution. Any sex act outside marriage.

 

[new man]

http://www.leaderu.com/stonewall/issues/marco2.html

 

[new man]

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/dallas.html

 

[JamesJ]

"It's Not Gay" presents a story that few have heard, allowing former homosexuals the opportunity to tell their own story in their own words. ...
http://www.itsnotgay.com

We get hundreds of calls from homosexuals around the country looking for help, and for hope. Stephen Bennett Ministries.
http://www.SBMinistries.org

 

[new man]

I emailed SB Ministries a few days ago to encourage him and to let him know I emailed Bill O'Reilly and chewed him out good fashion!

Russ &lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[JamesJ]

Yep.. I did the same thing. Talk about being blind-sided!

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Originally posted by JamesJ:
Yep.. I did the same thing. Talk about being blind-sided!

I think this is a sign of how out-of-touch the far right wings of both Christianity and the Republican party are. Even socially conservative pundits like O'Reilly don't find fault with homosexuality. Despite what it looks like here, those opposed to homosexuality are a dwindling minority (alongside those opposed to equal rights for women and racial minorities).

Joshua

 

[Rev. G]

As you well know, orthodoxy is also on the decline. However, in the case of truth, the majority does not rule. God rules. Period.

Rev. G

[ September 29, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

 

[JamesJ]

Blow to the cheek absorbed without damage due to standing on the firm foundation of Christ and His gospel, Joshua... Turning the other the cheek now...

 

[new man]

Despite what it looks like here, those opposed to homosexuality are a dwindling minority

That just proves Jesus right once again:

The Narrow and Wide Gates

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them (Matthew 7:13-20).

So what if those against homosexuality are in the minority? Since when being in the minority supposed to be an indication that a thing is right? Friend, your logic is flawed, not to mention your theology. You seem to find comfort in numbers. You have a "herd" mentality (2 Peter 2:12). You have plenty of company, others in the past have also. I guess we conservative Bible believers have been reduced to "troublers of Israel" in both your's and your peers' eyes. But you know what? That's ok.

So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. When he saw Elijah, he said to him,

"Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

"I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have.

You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals.

Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table." So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him." But the people said nothing. Then Elijah said to them,

"I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.

Seems Elijah was in the minority too.

...I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

You sir, have pulled up a chair at Jezebel's table. May God have mercy on you.

Russ &lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[new man]

Even socially conservative pundits like O'Reilly don't find fault with homosexuality.

Maybe not, but praise Jesus, an ever growing number of ex-homosexuals do.

Russ &lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
Despite what it looks like here, those opposed to homosexuality are a dwindling minority (alongside those opposed to equal rights for women and racial minorities).

By comparying racial minorities to the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, "Reverund" Joshua proves himself as ignorant as those who make the same sort of falacious comparisons for purposes of discriminating against persons of African descent. Like the man who, after I preached a sermon against homosexuality, came out the door shook my hand and said something to the effect of

"Yeah, before long this country will be nothing but queers and niggers."

Joshua is just that stupid.

A few years back there was an African nation (I forget which) where the President made the public statement that Sodomites had no rights and would have no rights in his country; I'd like to see "Reverund" Joshua go over there and make these sorts of ridiculous comparisons of persons of color to preverts.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
Despite what it looks like here, those opposed to homosexuality are a dwindling minority

Joshua I prefer to be considered a remnant instead of dwindling minority. Of course I feel your estimation of who is pro homosexual or not is flawed. But even if you are correct in this poll the only one who really counts is God and we all who how he feels about homosexuals, except for a dwindling minority who are misguided that is.
Murph

 

[Johnv]

So what if those against homosexuality are in the minority? Since when being in the minority supposed to be an indication that a thing is right?

Whether or not one os in the majority or the minority is irrelevant to being right or wrong. It's simply an indicator of how many people agree with you.

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Another thread on the subject of "homosexuality" is now in it's 168th post with the usual "tit for tat" of "uh-huh" and "uh-uh" going back and forth.

All sincere believers in Jesus Christ believe that sodomy is a sin; it is useless to argue with those who deny it for they are wicked men who have no intention whatsoever of bowing to the dictates of God on this subject.

I would like to address some aspects of this subject that might actually have some value to those who are involved in this sin or who have loved ones who are involved in this sin.

According to I Corinthians chapter 6, some of the saints at Corinth had previously been involved in sodomy. And yet they, along with all the other saints, had been washed, cleansed, and justified by the Spirit of God.

That tells me that a man or woman who has fallen into homosexuality can be redeemed from that sin. Not only can they be saved but they can be welcomed as members of the church

I say this because I have personally known people who didn't think that repentent sodomites should be allowed to join the church. To reject a repentent sodomite is just as much contrary to the word of God as to justify the sin of sodomy.

As a matter of fact, when a sodomite repents he is no longer a sodomite, any more than an adulterer is still and adulterer if he repents of his adultery.

The second thing I would like to address about this subject is the misconception that if a person is saved they will not commit the sin of sodomy. To say such a thing is just as wrong as saying if a man is saved he won't lie.

All of us sin every day and there is nothing in the Bible that says that a child of God is not capable of committing the sin of sodomy.

This is important to understand because there are doubtless children of God who have committed this sin and they don't need to be made to doubt their salvation. Rather, they need to be made to understand that their sin is an abomination to God and a blotch on their life so they will flee from it.

I knew a couple whose son, who professed to be saved, became involved in sodomy and died in that condition. This couple had a pastor who taught that it was impossible for a saved person to commit this sin.

I can only imagine the grief of having a child die in this awful condition; but to have a pastor tell you that it was not possible that your child was saved would be more than a person could bare.

So let these four things be settled once for all:

1. Sodomy is a horrible sin against God.

2. God is willing to save a sodomite as surely as anyone else.

3. Repentant sodomites should be welcomed into the full fellowship of the church.

4. Committing sodomy is no more a sign that a person is not saved than committing any other sin.

Mark Osgatharp

I agree, the only reservation I would have to number 3 would not be related to sodomites unless they have a history of child molestation whether bisexual or homosexual. I would allow them back in the church, but they would have to submit to being escourted by adult volunteers or at least kept away from the kids.

Speaking of homosexuals-----three times when I was young I was approached and solicited by child molesters-----strange enough all three were full grown men. Two were teachers.

I agree with everything you say above about the sin, but I have a REAL problem when a preacher claims to be Baptist would say to the world that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. I, as Paul would have done, must question their salvation. Sorry, but the Bible is pretty blunt about recognizing and dealing with sinful lifestyles "in Christ's kingdom".</font>[/QUOTE]No sir, you don’t hide your children, you cast out such a one that is doing these acts… If they are truly saved they will deny themselves and follow Christ… Let anyone that nameth the name of the Lord, depart from iniquity….. Amen!

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JamesJ:
Yep.. I did the same thing. Talk about being blind-sided!

I think this is a sign of how out-of-touch the far right wings of both Christianity and the Republican party are. Even socially conservative pundits like O'Reilly don't find fault with homosexuality. Despite what it looks like here, those opposed to homosexuality are a dwindling minority (alongside those opposed to equal rights for women and racial minorities).

Joshua</font>[/QUOTE]Well, Joshua, as far as I know O'Reilly has never professed to be born again. Also, I heard O'Reilly state the Bible is a book of stories and fables, or something to that effect. O'Reilly doesn't find fault with homosexuality because in spite of claiming to be the "no spin zone" he is pandering to political correctness of a certain sexual orientation agenda. He seemed to relax his stance quite a bit after the Rosie interview, I noticed, too. O'Reilly is Catholic, and while bashing the RCC for the pedophile priests (and rightly so), I haven't seen yet where the RCC officially condones homosexuality as no longer a sin, even though they have been infiltrated in their seminaries by gay males.

Right wing Christians and Republicans may be out of touch with political correctness in America or the rest of the "anything goes" code of morality on this planet, but the last I read in my KJV, I don't stand before a homosexual or sodomite as my ultimate judge in the hereafter. Praise God.

However, He does state He will hold certain people in derision one day.

Romans Chapter One. Selah.