Reformed and Southern Baptists

[Yeshua1]

We are reformed (small "r") Baptists (big "B").

Love the ARBCA, but not their covenant theology. Most of those pastors (I attend the annual conference) were trained in Presbyterian schools and are slavish faithful to the 1644 or 1689 Baptist Confessions, just as Presbyterians are to the Westminster.

Love the Founders, a fellowship within the SBC for churches that hold to the "founding" doctrines of that group. Tremendous preaching and missions at their meetings and a more diverse overall theology.

Love the Midlands Sovereign Grace fellowship, independent Baptist churches that are reformed soteriologically, but fully dispensational in overall theology. I am a regular speaker at their conferences and "my" crowd totally. But just a handful of churches contrasted to the Founders or ARBCA.

that would be interesting, to be able to blend dispy theology with calvinistic Sotierology!

Know someone like Dr McArthur has, but many calvinists look at him as being a quasi cal die to holding still dispy views also!

 

[Iconoclast]

It is hard for me to think that if bible truth is being preached consistently and without compromise that everyone would just blend together without any disunity.One group or the other usually leaves because they cannot abide with mush instead of meat.....or the word preached with conviction becomes to uncomfortable for the seeker friendly crowd...[./QUOTE]

Our former pastor was a good pastor, theologically sound, but he was not a Calvinist. But, he never preached against it. It was not about to be discussed from the pulpit.

Hello Tom,

When I see this; " but he never preached against it"....and yet most of the congregation does not welcome the teaching, it suggests a certain atmosphere to me that i have seen as i travel around.
Whenever any doctrinal truth comes up it is;
1] mostly ignored.....we will discuss that later on in a special bible study
the bible study never honestly takes place....you know these things should not really be discussed...in public

2]As the teaching is everywhere in the bible it makes the sermons of necessity sermon-lite most of the time as this is what happens...less sermons on most doctrine, more sermons on being a nice christian, winning the lost with love,doing good works. All of these topics are needful, but not separated from the doctrinal root or they are only an appeal to the flesh to be religious.

there are good solid pastors....let's say ...like James Macdonald from walk in the word...who speak about family,and children, and general news topics...at least he does preach repentance!

However to ignore many of the root teachings and doctrines in scripture seems off base.

Part of the reason goes back 25 years, when we went through some division over relocating. Several members who didn't want to relocate left. Many of us vowed that we'd never be part of a church argument again unless it involved heresy or gross misconduct. Since then, we've had pretty good unity.

You are there and can better make that judgement than I can.:thumbs:

Two reasons, I think, why we Calvinists don't push this soteriology: One, we can't abide a church fight over the issue.

No one wants a church fight or split,that could be avoided..

from the 1689;
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

Two, the Calvinists would lose that fight, since we are a definite minority.

Truth belongs to God and not us.We never "lose" ;
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

If God wanted to bring about reformation...many ,many times what happens is a church will call a young pastor who is still learning even after seminary.
This pastor comes to interact with those saints who have studied themselves into a mature understanding of these truths[You,Sn, and the remnant in your church}
As God uses the scriptural interaction in this pastors life....he sees these truths everywhere in scripture.It spills over from his study to his public ministry,teaching and preaching....

Some disaffected persons who do not understand much theology, try and organize a split, begin to break the 9th commandment, before they leave in a huff to join that little dead church down the road, who stand for little doctrinal truth but claim to be BIBLE believing Christians......except they actual do not believe hardly any of it.
nevertheless they do not deny the trinity, and they are looking for the antichrist, and the mark of the beast. they will argue about that.

Then they whine and gossip like many here on BB...that the evil Calvinists have caused a split,and forced this teaching on the people.THE REALITY IS...God has brought biblical reformation among His people and many who were formerly in the middle of the road, and or searching sincerely have now ...found a doctrinal home.....we have seen that here on BB as well.....and yet many lament this saying....how can you do this, or now believe what you used to oppose????

So, picking that fight is pointless

.

Brother, I know what you are saying...it is just that I believe being faithful to God and standing for truth is more of an issue ,than settling for a lukewarm kind of middle of the road situation. maybe you have avoided this?

In the meantime, our SS director (SN), the chairman of the deacons (me) and our best SS teacher are all DoGs. We don't bring up the subject, but DoG is reflected in what we teach and do.

here is where the "battle is"....like in the middle east....winning hearts and minds by scriptural truth, group bible studies, being open and honest,and yet firm....speaking the truth in Love.

So sum up, if you've ever been in a church fight, you'll do everything in your power to keep it from happening again. So, you pick your fights, and right now, DoG isn't one of them.

I have been in a few of these situations, and that is why i now only attend a confessional church as everything is stated up front.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe you should go down there Tony & straighten them out.....:laugh:

They are a local church...to their own master they stand or fall.God will do any such correction, or rejection as he see's fit.I only offer an opinion.

 

[Iconoclast]

sag38

Tom, you have the right attitude. Others I guess would be willing to split a church wide open by forcing DOG down others throats.

No one who is biblically stable would do this.Those who understand God's grace know that God alone can enable someone to grasp it fully.there is no "forcing of anything"....

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Think Dauphin Way Baptist Church in Mobile.

Were you in this church?
Do you know firsthand exactly what happened?

If you do not...be careful not to be a talebearer...passing on second hand info as if it is factual.

If you were there could you explain your version of what took place?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

Think the ones that would amke calvinism a big enough issue to divide and split the church over it

If we take your statement and re-word it slightly...".the ones who would make TRUTH a big enough issue to divide over"....it comes out a bit different. that would make them be the ones who are being faithful to God and His truth.

let me ask some questions for clarification;

Do we invent truth or has God declared it?
Do we dictate to God what is truth, or does He reveal it to who he will?
Has God given instruction on these matters?

Those like me who gradually moved away from what once held

Most believers are found here ,at least on several issues.Go with what you know,until God shows you a better way.
Everyone makes a stand and will be judged on that stand. Faithful unto death, or enemies of the cross of Christ...

people are learning and growing at different rates and maturity.Everyone can be patient with new believers and those who are sincerely questioning all manner of things.

Those who are openly hostile are to be resisted ....

to DoG would be more tolerant of having others holding to differing theology and understandings.

..

We are to be patient and yet not naive.We are to even love our enemies.Yet that love must be in the truth.

Also , not being a church that holds to Confessions would make us mor e"open minded" regarding holding differing viewpoints..

.

Or would perhaps make such a person naive and ungrounded in basic doctrinal foundations,like children tossed to and fro;
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Know some say calvinism is the Gospel, my take is that it explains the Gospel best!

:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Tom Butler]

Iconoclast, let me express my appreciation for your counsel in post #82. You are a wise man and I value your opinions.

My comments about my church and its position on Calvinism sought to reflect the situation as it is, not as i would like it to be.

I would very much welcome a civil discussion of the issue among our people. But the division of 25 years ago was pretty traumatic, and the thought of risking the unity which we have now scares the daylights out of me.

Rightly or wrongly, that fear drives my reluctance to get involved in a DoG fight.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tom Butler

Iconoclast, let me express my appreciation for your counsel in post #82. You are a wise man and I value your opinions.

Thank you. I think I am just an old man:thumbsup:and have been around awhile to see many situations unfold. I am a bad auto mechanic[I snap spark plugs off} but i have driven so many bad cars i have come to know by experience when things are not going well,lol

My comments about my church and its position on Calvinism sought to reflect the situation as it is, not as i would like it to be.

Tom....I am sure of that. What should be a positive time in the life of the church is surrounded by these issues.

I would very much welcome a civil discussion of the issue among our people. But the division of 25 years ago was pretty traumatic, and the thought of risking the unity which we have now scares the daylights out of me.

You are in a tough spot in several ways.I think you are very wise to avoid any conduct that would cause a split. Loving the brethren trumps any doctrinal differences for sure.
I love doctrine as it is God given. Even if we are confident that we have truth....great care must be used in a local church situation in that you have established friendships,and served with many in the assembly already.

Years ago several of us were in a Conservative Baptist church.The Pastor was a godly man. Several of us were relatively young believers who were serving and teaching at that time. The pastor sought to walk a fine line and not offend people.
He told us that that he even believed many of the things we did, but was reluctant to preach these things for he felt that many were not equipped to handle these things.
It was getting very difficult for us to remain there in that on the way home from service my wife and I would discuss the message and i would have to be correcting the omissions week by week.
I met privately with the pastor, then a group of us met with Him and some of the deacons. They {deacons} could not grasp what we were speaking about.
That year we went to a family conference down in Virginia.
A international known pastor was one of the 5 speakers there that week.
My friend and I approached him for advise on how to handle what was going on.
He stressed .......do nothing to undermine the pastor, or harm the saints there .he opened up 1 cor 3 to us:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

We were pretty stunned,lol. He then said...in public do nothing to harm these saints.....in private if they ask us at a bible study,or visiting...he said we are free to express our beliefs in full and open up the scriptures.

He said if we make a godly appeal to the leadership and it was not welcome, then we needed to pray if that was the place that we should be.

then i read a Spurgeon sermon about a week or two later in God's providence....on 1 tim 5

NO. 3055
A SERMON PUBLISHED ON THURSDAY, AUGUST 29TH, 1907
DELIVERED BY C. H. SPURGEON,
AT THE METROPOLITAN TABERNACLE, NEWINGTON,
ON LORD’S-DAY EVENING, MARCH 30TH, 1873.
“Neither be partaker of other men’s sins.” — 1 Timothy 5:22

here is some of what he offered:

Paul tells Timothy, whom he had sent to exercise a
general oversight over the officers and members of the church, not to be in
a hurry to lay his hands upon these men, so as to endorse their claim, but to
lot them wait awhile until they were tried and tested; because, if he allowed
them to take office in the church, and they committed faults or follies, he
would be responsible for them, and everybody would say, “We wonder that
Timothy should have sent out such men as these.” So he was bidden to be
cautious, lest he should become, in any way, “a partaker of other men’s
sins.” None of us are exactly in Timothy’s position; so we are not likely to
fall into the fault against which Paul warned him, at least, not in precisely
the same form; yet the text has a message to us, and we may say to one
another, “Be not partakers of other men’s sins.”
I. I

As to how we can become accomplices in other people’s sins, — the
preacher must first say to himself that he will be such a man if he is not
true to his trust. If he shall teach false doctrine, or if, teaching the true
doctrines, he shall teach them erroneously; — if he shall keep back
unpalatable truths; — if he shall allow sin to pass without reproof; — if he
shall see a great deficiency of spiritual life and service, and not point it out;
— if, in brief, he shall be an unfaithful servant of Christ, and his hearers
shall thereby be kept in a low state of grace, inconsistent with their
profession, and the unconverted shall be hindered from coming to Christ,
he will become a partaker in other men’s sins.

more in part two-

 

[Iconoclast]

Rightly or wrongly, that fear drives my reluctance to get involved in a DoG fight.

keep in prayer and positive put it before the lord as I am sure you have. here is more from that sermon:

We may also be “partakers of other men’s sins” by joining a church that
holds unscriptural doctrines, or that does not act according to apostolic
precedent. Some people say, “We belong to such-and-such a church, but
we don’t approve of its teaching or its practice.” What! you belong to it,
and yet you do not approve of its principles? Out of your own mouth you
are condemned. If I unite with a church, whose creed and catechism I do
not believe, and whose ordinances I do not practice, I am guilty of my own
share in all the error that is there. It is no use for me to say, “I am trying to
undo the mischief;” I have no business to be there. If I join a pirate’s crew,
I shall be responsible for all that is done by the whole crew. I have no
business to be on that vessel at all, and I must get out of it at the first
opportunity, or even fling myself into the sea, rather than have a share in
the pirates’ wrongdoing.

this last part spoke to my situation at that time. We did not have the spiritual maturity to remain there as we were in fear of causing a split on one hand, but we were seeing that the pastors compromise was not helping anyone either...we began to pray, there was a group of us...four couples with our children.
we did not want to leave , but we could not stay at that time....we were too fired up and seeing the doctrinal indifference of so many of the members was more than we could handle at that time.

You are more mature now then we were then. I will keep it in prayer for you men and pray that God will work by His Spirit to help some of the members see more clearly what they are missing out on.

On the other hand:
As you remain there you in loving the saints are also to build them up,and seek to edify them.
These truths are meant to be a blessing, not a cause for a "fight'. You have your work cut-out for you alright....

 

[Herald]

keep in prayer and positive put it before the lord as I am sure you have. here is more from that sermon:


this last part spoke to my situation at that time. We did not have the spiritual maturity to remain there as we were in fear of causing a split on one hand, but we were seeing that the pastors compromise was not helping anyone either...we began to pray, there was a group of us...four couples with our children.
we did not want to leave , but we could not stay at that time....we were too fired up and seeing the doctrinal indifference of so many of the members was more than we could handle at that time.

You are more mature now then we were then. I will keep it in prayer for you men and pray that God will work by His Spirit to help some of the members see more clearly what they are missing out on.

May I add that some people are providentially hindered from attending another church.

 

[Iconoclast]

May I add that some people are providentially hindered from attending another church.

Yes...good point.Sometimes we are providentially in a place to be used of God.
It is not like there are solid churches all over the place.

When we left the church for awhile we travelled 1.5 hours to go to a church we know was sound,until the Lord provided for us.

Tom and these men have seen many changes and I think are acting very wisely at this time.it is not where they are new to the area,and searching for a new work.....this has been a long process and many relationships are involved.

It will be interesting to see how the Lord works in that place,going forward.:thumbs:

 

[saturneptune]

Iconoclast, let me express my appreciation for your counsel in post #82. You are a wise man and I value your opinions.

My comments about my church and its position on Calvinism sought to reflect the situation as it is, not as i would like it to be.

I would very much welcome a civil discussion of the issue among our people. But the division of 25 years ago was pretty traumatic, and the thought of risking the unity which we have now scares the daylights out of me.

Rightly or wrongly, that fear drives my reluctance to get involved in a DoG fight.

I am in complete agreement with this. During those years, I was still a Presbyterian, but did sit through a few of the business meetings, as I would go with Donna when I was dating her. That was enough for me, and never want to see it repeated. I certainly do not want to be any part of causing the demise of the church.

The best course of action is to use DoGs in our SS lessons and sermons. As the older generation leaves us and is replaced by younger folks, the bylaws and Constitution will change with it.

I do not envy the task of the Search Committee. It is five members of our church I have complete confidence in.

The issue that causes a division like the previous one really does not matter. If we repeated the actions of the mid to late 70s, we could cease to exist in short order.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am in complete agreement with this. During those years, I was still a Presbyterian, but did sit through a few of the business meetings, as I would go with Donna when I was dating her. That was enough for me, and never want to see it repeated. I certainly do not want to be any part of causing the demise of the church.

The best course of action is to use DoGs in our SS lessons and sermons. As the older generation leaves us and is replaced by younger folks, the bylaws and Constitution will change with it.

I do not envy the task of the Search Committee. It is five members of our church I have complete confidence in.

The issue that causes a division like the previous one really does not matter. If we repeated the actions of the mid tl late 70s, we could cease to exist in short order.

SN,

You men are seasoned saints and seem to have a good handle on it.Show the love of Christ to the brethren as you have been doing.
God is in control and can and will intervene in answer to prayer.
perhaps God already has been at work in the "new Pastor" and he might not even be aware of what is in store for him.
Stick to the godly design for eldership in 1 tim and Titus,and God will send the right man if all is well there.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The best course of action is to use DoGs in our SS lessons and sermons. As the older generation leaves us and is replaced by younger folks, the bylaws and Constitution will change with it.

Now don't tell me that SS isn't an indoctrination process.... You guys just admitted you do it & your reward is Iconoclasts gushing endorsement & a slap on the back.

If I was a hard core Arminian, Id be pissed right now but since I'm not & I slanted toward Calvinists, sounds like a spot on long range game plan to seed yourselves.....good show old man!:thumbs::laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Now don't tell me that SS isn't an indoctrination process.... You guys just admitted you do it & your reward is Iconoclasts gushing endorsement & a slap on the back.

If I was a hard core Arminian, Id be pissed right now but since I'm not & I slanted toward Calvinists, sounds like a spot on long range game plan to seed yourselves.....good show old man!:thumbs::laugh:

and if a frog had wings, he would not bump his butt.................

Hey, here is an idea, Barnum and Baileys Circus is hiring someone to circumcise elephants. The pay is bad but the tips are big.

 

[quantumfaith]

Now don't tell me that SS isn't an indoctrination process.... You guys just admitted you do it & your reward is Iconoclasts gushing endorsement & a slap on the back.

If I was a hard core Arminian, Id be pissed right now but since I'm not & I slanted toward Calvinists, sounds like a spot on long range game plan to seed yourselves.....good show old man!:thumbs::laugh:

I think that is a fine idea. If the church identifies itself as being "non-reformed" in nature, so long as the "nature" of class is clearly defined for its members. Never should anyone try to do things "under the radar". If the pastor suggests that it should not be done, then abide that as well.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

and if a frog had wings, he would not bump his butt.................

Hey, here is an idea, Barnum and Baileys Circus is hiring someone to circumcise elephants. The pay is bad but the tips are big.

You must have the position then to be so well informed.:laugh:

But now if you make wallets with them there are other bonuses ...think about it. :laugh:

 

[Dr. Bob]

Think it is time to stop this one. Dead.:tonofbricks: