Reformed Baptists

[Kai]

They believe the person has no responsibility, God does everything, including putting repentance into them.

That is consistent with the teaching of most Reformed Baptist churches.

Chapter 3, Paragraph 1 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith states that God has eternally and unchangeably decreed "whatsoever comes to pass".

Many RBs want to avoid calling this what it actually is—fatalism.

 

[Zenas]

How can a statement of faith be “legally binding”?

Because a member can be dismissed for violating his or her commitment to the church's statement of faith.

 

[Ascetic X]

Because a member can be dismissed for violating his or her commitment to the church's statement of faith.

You mean ex-communicated, kicked out, removed from official membership, banned from the church?

 

[Silverhair]

We are not responsible for another person’s eternal destiny, but we are responsible for trying to persuade men to be reconciled to God.


2 Corinthians 5

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That is what I said, but you seem to have missed it.

 

[Silverhair]

Wow Silv! That’s kinda what those mean ol’ Calvinists believe!

KY why do you call Calvinists mean? Misinformed but not mean.

Actually if you go by Calvinist theology they think they were elect/saved before creation so do they really believe the gospel message is necessary?

 

[JonC]

How do Reformed Baptist churches differ from the SBC?

Reformed Baptist churches do not differ from the SBC. Many churches that are members of the SBC are Reformed churches (and many are not).

The SBC is a convention. Churches become members of the SBC by giving to SBC missions (to the cooperative program) and holding doctrine consistent with the SBC faith and message.

About 30% of SBC pastors are Reformed (Calvinists). As far as how many of the churches are Reformed Baptist churches, the SBC does not track this (the 30% of pastors being Reformed was from a SBC poll to pastors).

60% of SBC pastors are concerned about Reformed theology in the SBC.

What this means is the SBC has more Reformed pastors than do non-SBC Reformed Baptist churches.


Paul Enns, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, David Platt are a few well known Reformed pastors in the SBC.

 

[JonC]

How can a statement of faith be “legally binding”?

It is not.

With the SBC, if a church adopts doctrine that contradicts the SBC faith and message then the SBC will remove that congregation from the SBC.

A SBC church is not legally or otherwise bound to abide by the statement of faith, but if it does not then it is removed from the convention.

But the SBC statement of faith has nothing to do with Calvinism. Most SBC pastors (60%) view Calvinism negatively while 30% are Reformed.

Here is the SBC Faith and Nessage:

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 - The Baptist Faith and Message

Table of Contents I. The Scriptures II. God III. Man IV. Salvation V. God's Purpose of Grace VI. The Church VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper VIII. The Lord's Day IX. The Kingdom X. Last Things XI. Evangelism and Missions XII. Education XIII. Stewardship XIV. Cooperation XV. The Christian and…

bfm.sbc.net

 

[David Lamb]

KY why do you call Calvinists mean? Misinformed but not mean.

Actually if you go by Calvinist theology they think they were elect/saved before creation so do they really believe the gospel message is necessary?

Elect before the foundation of the world, but not saved until they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

Elect before the foundation of the world, but not saved until they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

"In Him".

Calvinists often leave out that we were chosen in Christ before or from the foundation of the world because doing so forces their interpretation of election.

But Biblically Jesus is the Elect. We are chosen not to be in Him but in Him.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. (Ephesians 1:3–4)

We are chosen because He is the Chosen. God chose Christ. Those in Him are chosen because they are in Him. It is through Him thay we are predestined to adoption as sons.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

God foreknew is and predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ. He predestines us, calls us, justifies us and glorifies us.


This does not necessarily contradict Calvinism, but I have noticed Calvinists often leave out very important parts of passages in order to remove any other possible views.

 

[David Lamb]

"In Him".

Calvinists often leave out that we were chosen in Christ before or from the foundation of the world because doing so forces their interpretation of election.

But Biblically Jesus is the Elect. We are chosen not to be in Him but in Him.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. (Ephesians 1:3–4)

We are chosen because He is the Chosen. God chose Christ. Those in Him are chosen because they are in Him. It is through Him thay we are predestined to adoption as sons.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

God foreknew is and predestined us to be conformed into the image of Christ. He predestines us, calls us, justifies us and glorifies us.


This does not necessarily contradict Calvinism, but I have noticed Calvinists often leave out very important parts of passages in order to remove any other possible views.

I would only say that I didn't pretend to quote the verse then leave part of it out. If I had been quoting the verse, I would have quoted the whole, including the words "in Him" I imagine most people who believe the doctrines of grace/Calvinism would say the same. The very fact that we are told that God predestined us should show us that "in Him" cannot meant that God the Father looked down the annals of time to see who would believe on His Son, then choose them because He saw that they would be "in Christ." (Sorry - that's beginning to sound complex and I didn't mean it to be, so I'll leave it there. ) Thanks for replying.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nope. Calvinists do not believe “God did not make us responsible for another's eternal destiny, that is each persons responsibility.”

They believe the person has no responsibility, God does everything, including putting repentance into them.

Nope. That's not what Calvinists believe either. 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the word preached [or 'proclaimed'] to save those who believe.'
"Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel [lit. 'evangelize']!"

 

[Silverhair]

Nope. That's not what Calvinists believe either. 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the word preached [or 'proclaimed'] to save those who believe.'
"Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel [lit. 'evangelize']!"

Thanks for confirming the biblical teaching of trust in Christ before one is saved/elect.

Now if you could get past the misunderstanding that God, prior to creation, picked out certain people and only those can be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

Elect before the foundation of the world, but not saved until they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

David you say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for confirming the biblical teaching of trust in Christ before one is saved/elect.

If, after all this time, you don't understand the difference between being elect and being saved, my explaining it again is not going to help you.
But obviously we are saved by grace through faith. So, equally obviously, a sinner has to believe before he is saved.

Now if you could get past the misunderstanding that God, prior to creation, picked out certain people and only them to be saved.

And if you could understand the words, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne....' it would be a big help to you.

 

[Silverhair]

If, after all this time, you don't understand the difference between being elect and being saved, my explaining it again is not going to help you.
But obviously we are saved by grace through faith. So, equally obviously, a sinner has to believe before he is saved.

If, after all this time, you do not see that your "elect before creation" actually means they could never be lost in other words they were saved then my explaining it to you again is not going to help.

Obviously those that could not be lost, your picked out ones, do not need to believe. That is unless you think God could be wrong.

And if you could understand the words, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne....' it would be a big help to you.

Salvation does belong to God and the bible is clear that only those that have freely trusted in Him will be saved.

That would eliminate all your so called "elect" before creation.

Martin I will ask you the same question I asked David.

You say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

 

[KenH]

If, after all this time, you do not see that your "elect before creation" actually means they could never be lost in other words they were saved then my explaining it to you again is not going to help.

Obviously those that could not be lost, your picked out ones, do not need to believe. That is unless you think God could be wrong.

Justification From Eternity

"2b. Secondly, Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

2b1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", (Romans 8:1) and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."

2b2. Justification may well be considered as a branch of election; it is no other, as one expresses it, than setting apart the elect alone to be partakers of Christ's righteousness; and a setting apart Christ's righteousness for the elect only; it is mentioned along with election, as of the same date with it; "Wherein", that is, in the grace of God, particularly the electing grace of God, spoken of before, "he has made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6). What is this acceptance in Christ, but justification in him? and this is expressed as a past act, in the same language as other eternal things be in the context, he "has" blessed us, and he "has" chosen us, and "having" predestined us, so he has made us accepted; and, indeed, as Christ as always the beloved of God, and well pleasing to him; so all given to him, and in him, were beloved of God, well pleasing to him, and accepted with him, or justified in him from eternity.

2b3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings with which the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3,4). That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was" (2 Timothy 1:9). We may say, says Dr. Goodwin, of all spiritual blessings in Christ, what is said of Christ, that his goings forth are from everlasting—in Christ we were blessed with all spiritual blessings, (Ephesians 1:3) as we are blessed with all other, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ!

2b4. Christ became a Surety for his people from everlasting; engaged to pay their debts, bear their sins, and make satisfaction for them; and was accepted of as such by God his Father, who thenceforward looked at him for payment and satisfaction, and looked at them as discharged, and so they were in his eternal mind; and it is a rule that will hold good, as Maccovius observes, "that as soon as one becomes a surety for another, the other is immediately freed, if the surety be accepted;" which is the case here and it is but a piece of common prudence, when a man has a bad debt, and has good security for it, to look not to the principal debtor, who will never be able to pay him, but to his good bondsman and surety, who is able; and so Dr. Goodwin observes, that God, in the everlasting transaction with Christ, "told him, as it were, that he would look for his debt and satisfaction of him, and that he did let the sinners go free; and so they are in this respect, justified from all eternity."

2b5. The everlasting transaction, the same excellent writer thinks, is imported in 2 Corinthians 5:19. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". And the very learned Witsius is of opinion, "that this act of God may be called, the general justification of the elect." And, indeed, since it was the determination of God, and the scheme and method he proposed to take in Christ for the reconciliation of the elect, not to impute their sins to them, but to his Son, their Surety; then seeing they are not imputed to them, but to him; and if reckoned and accounted to him, then not to them; and if charged to him, then they must be discharged from them, and so justified; and a non-imputation of sin to the elect, is no other than a justification of them; and thus the apostle strongly concludes the imputation of Christ's righteousness; which is the "formalis ratio", or the form of justification, from the non-imputation of sin, and the remission of it (Romans 4:6-8)."

- excerpt from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

 

[David Lamb]

David you say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

That is not so. Scripture tells us that to be saved a sinner must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When a sinner does so, he or she shows that they were onwe of those chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If, after all this time, you do not see that your "elect before creation" actually means they could never be lost in other words they were saved then my explaining it to you again is not going to help.

Once again, you don't understand. Of course 'elect before creation' means that those God chooses can never be lost. Why on earth would you think I don't believe that?

Obviously those that could not be lost, your picked out ones, do not need to believe. That is unless you think God could be wrong.

Again, you just don't get it. The God who orders the end, orders the means. Of course He does! He's God, you see. No one gets into heaven without repenting of his sins and trusting in Christ for salvation, and this only happens through the gracious inflence of the Holy Spirit. 'But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.'

Salvation does belong to God and the bible is clear that only those that have freely trusted in Him will be saved.

Yes, only those who have freely trusted in Christ will be saved, but if God stopped there, no one at all would be saved (Romans 3:10-11; 1 Cor. 2:14). God actually loves people enough to save them, you see. He doesn't love them and then wait to see if they sink or swim. 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.'

That would eliminate all your so called "elect" before creation.

Not at all.

Martin I will ask you the same question I asked David.

You say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

What @David Lamb said.

 

[Silverhair]

That is not so. Scripture tells us that to be saved a sinner must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When a sinner does so, he or she shows that they were onwe of those chosen before the foundation of the world.

Your not dealing with the problem David.

David you say certain people were elect prior to creation so the question you have to answer is, was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

That is the issue that you have ignored.

If you say YES then would that not call into question the sovereignty of God?

If you say NO then that means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

I know what scripture says David but the issue is what the Calvinist theology says.

It seems you and Martin are just ignoring what your theology leads to.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, you don't understand. Of course 'elect before creation' means that those God chooses can never be lost.

Then faith is not required as they are already saved according to your theology.

No one gets into heaven without repenting of his sins and trusting in Christ for salvation

And here you contradict your prior comment.

Yes, only those who have freely trusted in Christ will be saved, but if God stopped there, no one at all would be saved

But according to your own comments those picked out prior to creation could not be lost so faith has nothing to do with their salvation.

You do seem to be rather confused Martin.

What @David Lamb said.

He did not deal with the issue either.

was there any possibility that those picked out could be lost?

That is the issue that you have ignored.

But you said " Of course 'elect before creation' means that those God chooses can never be lost."

So your NO means they were saved prior to creation. No need to hear the gospel, no need to trust in Christ.

I know what scripture says Martin but the issue is what the Calvinist theology says.

It seems you and David are just ignoring what your theology leads to.