Reformed Baptists

[David Lamb]

You and Martin keep saying that I do not understand what Calvinism means but it seems you and Martin do not understand what your theology teaches.

You wrote and Martin agreed with
"Elect before the foundation of the world, but not saved until they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Which is rather contradictory by your further comments

I asked you and Martin the same question.
was there any possibility that those picked out {prior to creation} could be lost?

Martin said and you agreed with
1. There is no possibility of any of the elect being lost.

Since Calvinism says the "elect" were picked out prior to creation and you say they cannot be lost then Calvinism has made faith irrelevant.

Let me ask the same question for the opposite direction David.

Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

I (and Martin) have answered this so many times. Yes, God's election took place before the foundation of the world. Calvinists believe that. And yes, the means by which sinners are saved is by grace through faith, i.e. by belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Calvinists believe that too. So I was saved when by God's grace I believed 0n the Lord Jesus Christ, which was in 1968, a long time after the foundation of the world. Faith is not irrelevant.

 

[Reynolds]

How do Reformed Baptist churches differ from the SBC?

That's assuming that many SBC churches are not reformed.

 

[Reynolds]

You and Martin keep saying that I do not understand what Calvinism means but it seems you and Martin do not understand what your theology teaches.

You wrote and Martin agreed with
"Elect before the foundation of the world, but not saved until they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Which is rather contradictory by your further comments

I asked you and Martin the same question.
was there any possibility that those picked out {prior to creation} could be lost?

Martin said and you agreed with
1. There is no possibility of any of the elect being lost.

Since Calvinism says the "elect" were picked out prior to creation and you say they cannot be lost then Calvinism has made faith irrelevant.

Let me ask the same question for the opposite direction David.

Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

I am a Calvinist. I will agree with you that many Calvinists want to play word games. If God predestined me to salvation, wrote my name in The Book before the foundations of creation, then there is no possibility that I could ever not end up in His presence for eternity. Was I technically saved before the moment we call "salvation"? No, but there was never a time I could have died lost. It's pretty much a meaningless word game.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Psalm 139:1-4, 16 'O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
You know my sitting down and my rising up; you understand my thought afar off. You comprehend my path and my lying-down, and are acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word on my tongue, but behold, O LORD, You know it altogether ............. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in your book they were all written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there was none of them written.'

 

[Silverhair]

I (and Martin) have answered this so many times. Yes, God's election took place before the foundation of the world. Calvinists believe that. And yes, the means by which sinners are saved is by grace through faith, i.e. by belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Calvinists believe that too. So I was saved when by God's grace I believed 0n the Lord Jesus Christ, which was in 1968, a long time after the foundation of the world. Faith is not irrelevant.

You did not answer the question David. But then again neither did Martin. You are both ignoring the elephant in the room.

If according to Calvinism someone is not picked out prior to creation then it is impossible for them to be saved. And you have both said that those picked out prior to creation cannot be lost. So if they cannot be lost then they do not need to believe to be saved as according to both of you it is impossible form them not to be saved.

That at some point in time according to your Calvinist view God gave you faith is actually irrelevant to whether you were saved or not.

That is the logical outcome of your Calvinism David. It is just the you and Martin do not want to admit that is the outcome.

 

[Silverhair]

I am a Calvinist. I will agree with you that many Calvinists want to play word games. If God predestined me to salvation, wrote my name in The Book before the foundations of creation, then there is no possibility that I could ever not end up in His presence for eternity. Was I technically saved before the moment we call "salvation"? No, but there was never a time I could have died lost. It's pretty much a meaningless word game.

Actually it is not meaningless. If one thinks they can never be lost, as you say, then how they live becomes meaningless.
Being saved is not a technicality. One is either saved or they are not.

But lets look at this for the other direction, could those who did not have their name in the book of life from before creation be saved?

What you have said is that ones salvation is based on when their name appeared in the book of life not on whether they believed or not. That is the issue that Calvinism wants to overlook.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is consistent with the teaching of most Reformed Baptist churches.

Chapter 3, Paragraph 1 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith states that God has eternally and unchangeably decreed "whatsoever comes to pass".

Many RBs want to avoid calling this what it actually is—fatalism.

1689 London Baptist Confession 3:1.
God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own free will, freely and unchangeably, all thenigs that shall ever come to pass [Isaiah 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18] - Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any [James 1;13-15; 1 John 1:5] in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away [Acts 4;27-28; John 19:11] - In all this, God's wisdom is displyed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree [Numbers 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5]
9:1.
God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice.This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil [Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19]
N.B. The Scripture proofs are in the original.
You are free to disagree with the Confession, but the compilers clearly did not believe in fatalism; and nor do I. The fact is that God is a whole lot smarter than we are.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If according to Calvinism someone is not picked out prior to creation then it is impossible for them to be saved.

Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21: 'And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'

 

[Silverhair]

Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21: 'And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'

Martin I know what the bible says regarding one's salvation and I have even pointed that out to various Calvinists.

Where you drop the ball is when you say because you were "elect" before the foundation of the world then you could not be lost and yet you say that does not mean you were saved.

Care to point out the difference between not being able to be lost and your being saved?

You cannot say you were saved in time because you believed as your own theology says you have to be saved prior to God giving you faith.

So as I have said before your theology makes faith in Christ irrelevant.

So whether it is before creation or in time what matters in Calvinism is that you think you were one of those picked out before creation, faith is secondary.

 

[JonC]

I am a Calvinist. I will agree with you that many Calvinists want to play word games. If God predestined me to salvation, wrote my name in The Book before the foundations of creation, then there is no possibility that I could ever not end up in His presence for eternity. Was I technically saved before the moment we call "salvation"? No, but there was never a time I could have died lost. It's pretty much a meaningless word game.

I think the biggest disagreement here is the basis on which one is foreknown, predestined, has their name written in the Book of Life.

Calvinists believe the basis is the sovereign will of the Father with the reason some are chosen and others not being a mystery.

Biblically the basis is Christ. We are foreknown, predestined, elect, etc "in Him". Those not "in Christ" are not elect, are not foreknown, are not predestined. But once they are in Christ and Him in them they are numbered among the elect, foreknown in Christ, predestined to be conformed into His image.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin I know what the bible says regarding one's salvation and I have even pointed that out to various Calvinists.

You know it but you don't understand it. Your understanding is so appallingly earthbound that you seem incapable of accepting what God says in His word.

Where you drop the ball is when you say because you were "elect" before the foundation of the world then you could not be lost and yet you say that does not mean you were saved.

Care to point out the difference between not being able to be lost and your being saved?

Very simply, it is what God says. First He says that He, from the beginning, chose us for salvation through belief in the truth, and at the same time He says that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Why can you not simply believe what He tells you, even if you can't understand it? '"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."'

You cannot say you were saved in time because you believed as your own theology says you have to be saved prior to God giving you faith.

My theology says nothing of the sort, as you know very well because I have told you repeatedly. When are you going to stop telling me what I believe?

So as I have said before your theology makes faith in Christ irrelevant.

And as I have said before (many times), my theology does nothing of the sort.

So whether it is before creation or in time what matters in Calvinism is that you think you were one of those picked out before creation, faith is secondary.

What I just wrote above, though I know it won't do any good. You will keep trotting out the same old nonsense because you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think the biggest disagreement here is the basis on which one is foreknown, predestined, has their name written in the Book of Life.

Calvinists believe the basis is the sovereign will of the Father with the reason some are chosen and others not being a mystery.

Biblically the basis is Christ. We are foreknown, predestined, elect, etc "in Him". Those not "in Christ" are not elect, are not foreknown, are not predestined. But once they are in Christ and Him in them they are numbered among the elect, foreknown in Christ, predestined to be conformed into His image.

'Just as He [God] chose us [Christians] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.' Yes, we are foreknown, predestined, elect etc. and all of it is 'in Christ' and all of it is before the foundation of the world. And yes, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, but that will not happen unless God opens their hearts to do so. Why? Because God prevents them? No! Because they will not come, as is evidenced in all the texts I keep on giving.

 

[atpollard]

Was there any possibility of those not picked out prior to creation of being saved?

John 6:43-45 [NASB]
Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop complaining among yourselves.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

Did they ["them" in John 6:43] have a just reason for complaining?

 

[atpollard]

It's pretty much a meaningless word game.

Not entirely 'meaningless' if the goal is to place sovereign control in the free will of man rather than the predetermined will of God.
Who chose whom?

 

[JonC]

'Just as He [God] chose us [Christians] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.' Yes, we are foreknown, predestined, elect etc. and all of it is 'in Christ' and all of it is before the foundation of the world. And yes, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, but that will not happen unless God opens their hearts to do so. Why? Because God prevents them? No! Because they will not come, as is evidenced in all the texts I keep on giving.

My point was that some alter the text and suggest we were chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world.

All of this - being foreknown, chosen in Christ, predestined to be conformed into His image, (all of the blessings mentioned) is predicated on being "in Christ".

I am not claiming that you believe God foreknew and predestined me prior to them being born of the Spirit (before they are "in Christ"), but many do and this affects their understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reynolds]

Not entirely 'meaningless' if the goal is to place sovereign control in the free will of man rather than the predetermined will of God.
Who chose whom?

I am not referring to the C vs A doctrinal debate as being meaningless. I am referring to some Calvinists playing word games about some points that are meaningless. I believe double predestination. Listening to the word games many Cals play to try to make a pitiful effort in explaining that they only believe single predestination is a cross between comedy and pitifulness.