You still have not addressed the fact that God's SPIRITUAL elect cannot be lost. You keep quoting the Scripture "Do not be arrogant" What do you think is arrogant about saying that I am secure from wrath in Jesus? I mean in Heb 10 the Scripture plainly says By one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified!psalms109:31 said:
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Reformed, Calvinist or both?
- Thread starter FERRON BRIMSTONE
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psalms109:31
Active Member
iScripture shows
scripture also shows if they have left us proves that they were never of us.
We can believe and satan can steal it, or we can just let trials and tribulation.
Just because you believe once does not prove that you are the elect.
The elect of God is plainly believers. Not someone who can be blowned by the wind in every direction, but those who endure to the end.
scripture also shows if they have left us proves that they were never of us.
We can believe and satan can steal it, or we can just let trials and tribulation.
Just because you believe once does not prove that you are the elect.
The elect of God is plainly believers. Not someone who can be blowned by the wind in every direction, but those who endure to the end.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
psalms109:31 said:
I'm confused. Could you (psalms109.31) tell me what you mean by "elect"? Could you also help me in finding the scripture you say you have given which, according to you, shows that the elect have been cut out because of unbelief? I've tried looking through your messages in this thread, but I can't find it, perhaps because of the length of the thread.
It seems to me (and I may well be wrong - I don't know you, and only have your messages to go on) that you have misunderstood what those who believe in election actually believe. They don't believe that sinners can be elected and saved without trusting the Lord Jesus Christ. The two things go together. There is a scriptural balance between God's sovereignty in election, and man's responsibility to repent and believe the gospel. That is why I quoted the words of Jesus in John 6.47 in my previous reply: John 6.37: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
If I have misunderstood you, I am truly sorry, but at the momment I am puzzled.
psalms109:31
Active Member
scrpture
First of all you need to know who God chose to be His people and for Him to be thier God.
They are jews, they are the natural branches.
Jesus came to save them, but those who were invited didn't want to come. So God invited everyone.
He cut out those Jews for unbelief and included us who are gentiles when we heard the Gosple of oursalvation having believed.
Until men who chose themselves and call themselves the elect of God humbly confess they are just dogs at the master table and that they were included in the family when they believed they will never understand the truth of God's word.
If you do not believe the jews are the elect, you will never understand the scripture that God has given to you.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
First of all you need to know who God chose to be His people and for Him to be thier God.
They are jews, they are the natural branches.
Jesus came to save them, but those who were invited didn't want to come. So God invited everyone.
He cut out those Jews for unbelief and included us who are gentiles when we heard the Gosple of oursalvation having believed.
Until men who chose themselves and call themselves the elect of God humbly confess they are just dogs at the master table and that they were included in the family when they believed they will never understand the truth of God's word.
If you do not believe the jews are the elect, you will never understand the scripture that God has given to you.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
psalms109:31 said:
Ah! Now I think I see what you are getting at. But were all the Jews "elected" to salvation? Surely not, for we have Jesus telling the Pharisees (Jews) that they are of their father, the devil. Also, the words "elect" and "chosen" are used of Christian believers. It is to Christian believers in Ephesus, a gentile city, that Paul wrote those words about being "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.
Perhaps what you are saying is that no one can say they are saved simply because of their physical ancestry. Jews cannot say,"I don't need salvation from Christ; I'm descended from Abraham." (Well, they can say it, but they wouldn't be right). If that is what you mean, then I am fairly sure you will find that Christians who believe in spiritual election would agree with you.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Before the foundation of the world
I have not been predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved, it is believers that before the foundation of the world God has decided to save.
My only hope for salvation is Jesus not in my election
I have not been predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved, it is believers that before the foundation of the world God has decided to save.
My only hope for salvation is Jesus not in my election
psalms109:31
Active Member
persecution
Because of the persecution of Jewish believers, and what happened to Stephen, the Jewish believers where spread out every where.
Because of the persecution of Jewish believers, and what happened to Stephen, the Jewish believers where spread out every where.
psalms109:31
Active Member
predestined
The world has good news, and God has not excluded anyone from it.
It is God's will and purpose to save believers. He has predestined by the words of Jesus that whosoever believs shall be saved not maybe but shall be saved that is predestined to me to be saved.
The world has good news, and God has not excluded anyone from it.
It is God's will and purpose to save believers. He has predestined by the words of Jesus that whosoever believs shall be saved not maybe but shall be saved that is predestined to me to be saved.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello psalms109psalms109:31 said:
General revelation yes. Peculiar revelation..not true. This is seen clearly in the Bible, over and over again
here in Matt 11 the Bible tells us that if Sodom that great evil city that God destroyed by fire, was shown the same mighty works as was shown to Capernaum that Sodom would have not been destroyed. So...why was Tyre, Sidon and Sodom excluded from His might works so that they could repent...so that they would not be destroyed?
In Christ.........James
AMEN - jne1611 !!!
IF you will notice Psalm in the verse he quotes:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
These bolded words show it is a completed fact before their death and while they are still alive and not yet finished their own course.
Our salvation is complete:
not because of what we do, but because of what He DID!
Not because of who we are, but because of who He IS!!
(to quote a song)
Not for how well we endured but that He endured all things for my sake.
What I could not do, He did for me, and what I could pay, He paid it all.
IF you will notice Psalm in the verse he quotes:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
These bolded words show it is a completed fact before their death and while they are still alive and not yet finished their own course.
Our salvation is complete:
not because of what we do, but because of what He DID!
Not because of who we are, but because of who He IS!!
(to quote a song)
Not for how well we endured but that He endured all things for my sake.
What I could not do, He did for me, and what I could pay, He paid it all.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Obtain
When do we get our inhertance it is at the end of the road, you keep wanting to forget all the other scripture. When we endure to the end we will be saved. According to the word of God we obtain our inheritance when we endure to the end.
That is why thier is false doctrine, because they live on little pieces of God's word and not everthing that proceeds from the mouth of God.
2 Peter 1:10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
When do we get our inhertance it is at the end of the road, you keep wanting to forget all the other scripture. When we endure to the end we will be saved. According to the word of God we obtain our inheritance when we endure to the end.
That is why thier is false doctrine, because they live on little pieces of God's word and not everthing that proceeds from the mouth of God.
2 Peter 1:10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Stand firm
We are being predestined so stand firm in God's kindness.
For the natural branches was cut out for unbelief.
So do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either.
So stand firm in God kindness or you likewise will be cut out.
Remember the natural branches was cut out for unbelief.
We are being predestined so stand firm in God's kindness.
For the natural branches was cut out for unbelief.
So do not be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either.
So stand firm in God kindness or you likewise will be cut out.
Remember the natural branches was cut out for unbelief.
You have picked a good verse to twist into your false doctrine, for your gospel is a gospel of fear! There is no consolation to the man who trusts his eternity to his own consistency, for we are but flesh & God's people know that! The hope we have is the consistency of Jesus Christ! And having faith in him, we have hope for eternity!psalms109:31 said:
And as far as bits and pieces of the Word of God. The only one on this thread feasting on pretexts is you. The same few every time for the most part. You seem to view the whole Bible through 3 or 4 verses taken from the whole of Scripture & you use those verses against the whole of Scripture which teaches ETERNAL SECURITY in CHRIST!
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Psalms
Since you persist in quoting the Natural branches verse completly out of its context, let us go back and look at what is ACTUALLY being said. It has NOTHING to do with works. GOD DID NOT CUT OFF OR CAST AWAY THE JEWISH PEOPLE as you assume. Ready?
He then shows the prophesies of God showing It had to be so that the truth may go out to others. This was Gods judgment upon their unbeleif as a people but as Paul stated just verses earlier, He still has not cast them away, but put them aside. He has not disowned them.
NOTE: "...Through their "FALL"..." is actually translated better - tresspass.
ARE YOU SEEING A PATTERN BY PAUL- God Has not CAST OFF His people that He foreknew. But wait we are coming to the casting off part you are holding to, but let us keep this in context. Context is KEY~!
Question:
Did God remove ALL of the branches or just those in unbeleif?
Lets us continue:
Since you persist in quoting the Natural branches verse completly out of its context, let us go back and look at what is ACTUALLY being said. It has NOTHING to do with works. GOD DID NOT CUT OFF OR CAST AWAY THE JEWISH PEOPLE as you assume. Ready?
1. God did not and has not cast His people whom He foreknew off.
We find that even dispite their killing of God appointed men, He still maintains a people that have not do so. In other words dispite what they have done, God has not cast them off!
This same people God has not cut off, and according to Paul, even at this present time there is a remnant of grace. Grace is given and is COMPLETELY absent of any work.
Now Paul is asking a very important question. Did only the election find what they were looking for and Israel not see it also?
He then shows the prophesies of God showing It had to be so that the truth may go out to others. This was Gods judgment upon their unbeleif as a people but as Paul stated just verses earlier, He still has not cast them away, but put them aside. He has not disowned them.
We see Paul showing AGIAN they are not disowned but that as the salvation of God comes to those who were not of old called His people, they will become jealous and their unbeleif will become feverent devotion again.
NOTE: "...Through their "FALL"..." is actually translated better - tresspass.
If their unbeleif brought brought us the riches of salvation and a relationship with God, How much more fulfilling will thiers be! BTW - Fulness is actually fully recovered or restored.
ARE YOU SEEING A PATTERN BY PAUL- God Has not CAST OFF His people that He foreknew. But wait we are coming to the casting off part you are holding to, but let us keep this in context. Context is KEY~!
We see here that what has transpired is actually for thier good, just as the previous verse states it will cause the to be jealous for Him.
Here IT IS!! He cast them away- but Paul STRESSED until now they were not cast away. Is this a contradiction. The apostle had denied that they were cast away ( Rom 11:1 ); here he affirms it. But both are true; they were cast away, though neither totally nor finally, and it is of this partial and temporary rejection that the apostle here speaks. The reception of the whole family of Israel, and the most determind enemies of the Lord Jesus, will be such a stupendous manifestation of the power of God, will not only kindle devout astonishment far and wide, but so change the dominant mode of thinking and feeling on all spiritual things as to seem like a resurrection from the dead.
The first fruits were that which was given to God and therefore Holy. The lump (like flour or meal) was that which was made from the first fruit given to God therefore it also was Holy. Same with the root being holy also makes the branches that come from it also holy. So we see the separation unto God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, from the rest of mankind, as the parent stem of their race, was as real an offering of first-fruits as that which hallowed the produce of the earth, so, in the divine estimation, it was as real a separation of the mass or "lump" of that nation in all time to God.
Question:
Did God remove ALL of the branches or just those in unbeleif?
Lets us continue:
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We see the answer to my previous question, that only SOME of the branches were cut off, and that we are grafted in amoung those branches still remaining, those that are also nurished by the root of the Olive tree. Olive Tree is symbolic of the Jewish people.
In other word do not exalt yourself above the natural branches saying they were cast away that "I" could take their place. We find a direct correlation to Rom 12:3 of think not more highly of yourself than you ought! And it just so happens to be the 3rd verse of the next chapter (12) of the one we are currently studying about this same topic.
--If the branches may not boast over the root that bears them, then the Gentile may not boast over the seed of Abraham; Becuase really what is our standing as Gentiles in relation to Israel, except that of a branch in relation to the root? From Israel hath come all that we are and that we have in the family of God; as says the scriptures : for "salvation is of the Jews" ( Jhn 4:22 ).
See previous commentary on boasting of this type.
Here is the verse: So let us keep context paramount.
The natural branches as it states were broken off for unbeleif, and we stand [in] by faith [belief]. Don't be arrogent in this knowledge but fear.
WHY?
Because if God spared not the natural branches (Those in unbeleif) He will not spare you. That is an odd statement for a beleiver to be equated with one of unbelief. Not when you understand the scriptures have been constitantly refering to the cutting off as temporal (as in setting aside). Be fearful that God will set you aside or not use you. There is nothing worse to a beleiver than to be useless to God. As we look at the rest of the chapter you will see that is exactly what it is refering to. (rewards for those faithful not loss of salvation)
God is good and severity (rough) and we are to to look at it. Serverity toward those of unbelief but good toward you [for salvation] grafting in. But we must continue (live) in HIS goodness or you will be cut off.
REMEMBER this is talking and has been constitantly so, speaking of setting aside not disowning. We see thin in the very next verse.
LOOK: Those cut out are NOW grafted BACK in.
A quote from the David Brown commentary:
--This appeal to the power of God to effect the recovery of His ancient people implies the vast difficulty of it--which all who have ever labored for the conversion of the Jews are made depressingly to feel. That intelligent expositors should think that this was meant of individual Jews, reintroduced from time to time into the family of God on their believing on the Lord Jesus, is surprising; and yet those who deny the national recovery of Israel must and do so interpret the apostle. But this is to confound the two things which the apostle carefully distinguishes. Individual Jews have been at all times admissible, and have been admitted, to the Church through the gate of faith in the Lord Jesus. This is the "remnant, even at this present time, according to the election of grace," of which the apostle, in the first part of the chapter, had cited himself as one. But here he manifestly speaks of something not then existing, but to be looked forward to as a great future event in the economy of God, the reingrafting of the nation as such, when they "abide not in unbelief." And though this is here spoken of merely as a supposition (if their unbelief shall cease)--in order to set it over against the other supposition, of what will happen to the Gentiles if they shall not abide in the faith--the supposition is turned into an explicit prediction in the verses following.
We are cut from the world and grafted into the olive tree, how much better a grafting (how much easier a grafting) the natural branch into the natural tree.
We see again, they will become grafted back into this tree. So they are not cut off or disowned by God but merely set aside. Can you graft a dead branch into a living tree. No. So that which was cut out is still viable and able to be grafted back in since it was not dead, but cut out and set aside.
I can continue if you would like but I am simply showing the "cutting off" you keep coming back to, is NOT what you assume it to mean with regard to content and context of scripture. We do not need to fear God removing salvation from us, since it is based on HIM being able to KEEP us Saved.
We can not as beleivers leave Christ nor can we live a life style that denies He is our Lord, God, and Saviour. Thus as beleivers we are not able to deny Him since we have been given a new nature that is alive and in union with Christ Jesus and empowered and sealed by the Holy Spirit that we may live IN Him. We are to keep thing in their proper perspective that we do not loose sight of what is truly important - living for Christ - which is why the VERY NEXT CHAPTER states we are to present our bodies as living sacrifices. Not because we will loose our salvation but the rewards that are supposed to accompany a life devoted to Him.
psalms109:31
Active Member
scripture
Actually that scripture God used to humbled me realizing that I must continue in God kindness that just as the natural branches has been cut out I to will be.
It is believers that is being predestined to salvation and non believers is being predestined to condemnation.
I know that church as been believing a false doctrine so long, just like the pharisees and they are too stuburn to tear down thier thier temple and truely let Jesus rebuild it.
Your hope is Jesus not in election.
There was believing Jews , and they remained, and if the natural branches do not presist in thier unbelief, they will be grafted in again.
Arrogance is believing that you are saved no matter what, even if you are a non-believer who is being predestined to condemnation.
A meek person as the scripture says is one who trust in the Lord.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Read this scripture and compare it to what you are trying to make the scripture say.
Actually that scripture God used to humbled me realizing that I must continue in God kindness that just as the natural branches has been cut out I to will be.
It is believers that is being predestined to salvation and non believers is being predestined to condemnation.
I know that church as been believing a false doctrine so long, just like the pharisees and they are too stuburn to tear down thier thier temple and truely let Jesus rebuild it.
Your hope is Jesus not in election.
There was believing Jews , and they remained, and if the natural branches do not presist in thier unbelief, they will be grafted in again.
Arrogance is believing that you are saved no matter what, even if you are a non-believer who is being predestined to condemnation.
A meek person as the scripture says is one who trust in the Lord.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Read this scripture and compare it to what you are trying to make the scripture say.
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I just showed you that in context and content the "cut you out/off" is talking of a temporary setting aside or not using you, BUT just as the natural branches WERE cut off THEY WILL BE AGAIN grafted IN!!!
You are saved as a beleiver NO MATTER WHAT.
But due to the new man within you WILL NOT continue (lifestyle) after the world as you once did. You will be changed and IF you fall back (backslide) you will not be forsaken due to your human nature that is a war with you spirit man but He will bring you back into fellowship with Himself via His Spirit that was given you to empower you TO endue. Don't you get it! This is that which the scriptures speak concerning Christ That HE LOSE NONE that come to Him. Note who it all rests upon, [He] what is the all [losing none that come]. It isn't about you but Him fulfilling the promises of God to man.
IF we can't get it, we sure can't keep it. And if He gives us what we couldn't get, it still is not something we are to try to live a good life to keep. Why? because the law proved we can't DO IT. We, in these bodies CAN NOT maintain a good enough life to merit or warrent heaven. Only the one who purchased our salvation has the ability to maintain and THAT is why He did it for us. Not to excuse us to do whatever we want (that is completely unbiblical of any true believer for they have been changed forever towards Him) but WILL continue DUE to Gods grace and gift of so great a salvation!
You are saved as a beleiver NO MATTER WHAT.
But due to the new man within you WILL NOT continue (lifestyle) after the world as you once did. You will be changed and IF you fall back (backslide) you will not be forsaken due to your human nature that is a war with you spirit man but He will bring you back into fellowship with Himself via His Spirit that was given you to empower you TO endue. Don't you get it! This is that which the scriptures speak concerning Christ That HE LOSE NONE that come to Him. Note who it all rests upon, [He] what is the all [losing none that come]. It isn't about you but Him fulfilling the promises of God to man.
IF we can't get it, we sure can't keep it. And if He gives us what we couldn't get, it still is not something we are to try to live a good life to keep. Why? because the law proved we can't DO IT. We, in these bodies CAN NOT maintain a good enough life to merit or warrent heaven. Only the one who purchased our salvation has the ability to maintain and THAT is why He did it for us. Not to excuse us to do whatever we want (that is completely unbiblical of any true believer for they have been changed forever towards Him) but WILL continue DUE to Gods grace and gift of so great a salvation!
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