Reformed V Biblical Salvation

[Stratton7]

free will is a carnal philosophy not taught anywhere in scripture ...

Exactly what I believe about Calvinism.
I have to digress from this topic. Neither side rarely ends up in a better place arguing over it.
Say what you will and I wish you (and others the best with prayers.)

 

[AustinC]

Yet you’ve called him sbw more than once... Saved by works. Take the log out of your own eye, sir.

(This was to SBG) but I might as jump in since I happen to agree with what he’s shared.
However, I don’t know if he believes you have to keep works up, but I don’t.
Anyway, I believe the free gift of Salvation is accepted and doesn’t need to have any works to maintain it. We are secured through Christ eternally. We are called as Christians to do good works though. But Salvation does not need to be earned.

I suppose we could say the same about your theology.

Show me where I have provided scripture where I use it out of context. I welcome discussion as I desire to accurately discern what God fully says. I refuse however to narrow God to one phrase in one verse and then create an entire theology around a verse like you attempted with 2 Peter 3:9.

Now tell us about this "free gift of salvation we must accept." Can you provide a passage where the Bible actually expresses that precise thought?
First, salvation is not free. Jesus died to pay my debt, which I could not pay due to my wretched failure to keep God's law perfectly. The law condemned me. Jesus paid a heavy price to redeem me.
Second, how do I as a dead man, bent on feeding my narcissism and hedonism as ruler of my own kingdom, accept a gift without it being my willful work of reaching out and taking it for myself. How is that grace?
When your earthly parent gives a gift, does he leave it on the floor with no one's name on it with no special occasion or date of giving it in mind? Or does your earthly parent wait for a very specific date for a very specific purpose with a special gift that has your name on it, only for you, so you might open it on that day and so that your parent might rejoice and be glad in not only giving you the gift, but in watching you open it?

If a human parent can be that purposeful, do you doubt that your heavenly Father would somehow be less purposeful in his gift of salvation?

How is it that anyone would dare to view our heavenly Father as being a cheap gift giver who just leaves an unmarked gift on the floor for anyone smart enough and wise enough to grab, look it over and then decide to accept or reject? How pathetic that view of God is. How disgraceful and disrespectful of God to view His gift as being so trivial and non-purposeful.

 

[Iconoclast]

That’s what you say. The definition I posted shows the same thing as believing God is choosing only some to be saved beforehand as opposed to accepting the gift of Salvation because of what Christ has done.
It’s believing what will happen has already been decided. Same thing!

Not at all the same thing.
If God did not predestined a multitude in love,no one would be saved.
WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ANYONE ACCEPTS JESUS???
Scripture does say we are made accepted...in Eph 1:6,in the middle of that long sentence dealing with the electing mercy and love of God for the elect sheep the Father gave to the Son.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly what I believe about Calvinism.
I have to digress from this topic. Neither side rarely ends up in a better place arguing over it.
Say what you will and I wish you (and others the best with prayers.)

S7
We do not have to be enemies.
Lets see where we can agree first.
S7... I have seen many change as God enlightens their mind.
I HAVE HAD TO MODIFY MY VIEWS SEVERAL TIMES AS BIBLICAL CLARITY WAS OFFERED BY A BROTHER WHO WE WENT BACK AND FORTH.

 

[SavedByGrace]

He has it correct, you err once again

then you show just ONE verse in Romans chapter 9 that teaches election to salvation! It is clear that God PREFERRED Jacob over Easu, and that the older would SERVE the younger. All that follows shows that THIS is based on God's WILL and not on what man wills. Reformed theology has taken this, as it is perverted John 3:16, to FORCE the Bible to teach their heresies. They are in this NO better than the Jehovah's Witnesses, who also PERVERT the Word of God!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're becoming one of the most nonsensical on this board

EXACTLY the SAME about YOU and those who teach that NONSENSE that YOU do, which is NOT from the Bible! Thew OP 100% destroys your "theology"!

 

[Iconoclast]

then you show just ONE verse in Romans chapter 9 that teaches election to salvation! It is clear that God PREFERRED Jacob over Easu, and that the older would SERVE the younger. All that follows shows that THIS is based on God's WILL and not on what man wills. Reformed theology has taken this, as it is perverted John 3:16, to FORCE the Bible to teach their heresies. They are in this NO better than the Jehovah's Witnesses, who also PERVERT the Word of God!

i understand your frustration. You are consistently wrong.
You are reduced to name calling
Several have offered you correction,you refuse it.
You lack spiritual eyesight.....seek God for that

 

[SavedByGrace]

i understand your frustration. You are consistently wrong.
You are reduced to name calling
Several have offered you correction,you refuse it.
You lack spiritual eyesight.....seek God for that

ok thanks, you CANNOT provide ANY verse from Romans 9. I get it

 

[Iconoclast]

ok thanks, you CANNOT provide ANY verse from Romans 9. I get it

you have been answered you cannot grasp it.I would start in romans 8 and read through.Paul has actually been dealing with salvation since 3:24.Everyone but you seems to get it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

you have been answered you cannot grasp it.I would start in romans 8 and read through.Paul has actually been dealing with salvation since 3:24.Everyone but you seems to get it.

Romans 9-11 is about the Jews and the Gentiles, which is what the entire world is. The OP is very clear, that Paul says that salvation is NOT only for the Jews, to whom Jesus Came, but, is also for the entire world, as is taught in places like John 3:16. But, each time Scripture is presented, it is rejected by so called "Reformed/Calvinists", who simply cannot accept that God could actually love the enire human race, which He Created. It is their theology that puts God in a box, and tells Him what He can and cannot do!

 

[canadyjd]

Good grief……

Fatalism is a family of related philosophical doctrines that stress the subjugation of all events or actions to fate or destiny.

That’s exactly what Calvinism teaches.

Well no, not exactly.

Calvinism teaches God is sovereign in salvation, from start to finish.

I don’t believe in “fate” or “destiny”, just God.

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 9-11 is about the Jews and the Gentiles, which is what the entire world is. The OP is very clear, that Paul says that salvation is NOT only for the Jews, to whom Jesus Came, but, is also for the entire world, as is taught in places like John 3:16. But, each time Scripture is presented, it is rejected by so called "Reformed/Calvinists", who simply cannot accept that God could actually love the enire human race, which He Created. It is their theology that puts God in a box, and tells Him what He can and cannot do!

God has purposed salvation to go worldwide.
Not everyone ever born however.
Those who are the object of salvation were elected and given to the Son.
He dies a covenant death for them.
He seeks and saves each one,not one is lost.
Romans deals with specific issues.
You have shown woeful ignorance of the book,and yet spout off as if you had a clue.
You seem to have an anti Calvinist agenda.
Thats okay.You are not the first,you might not be the last.
These men have answered you at every turn.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 9-11 is about the Jews and the Gentiles, which is what the entire world is. The OP is very clear, that Paul says that salvation is NOT only for the Jews, to whom Jesus Came, but, is also for the entire world, as is taught in places like John 3:16. But, each time Scripture is presented, it is rejected by so called "Reformed/Calvinists", who simply cannot accept that God could actually love the enire human race, which He Created. It is their theology that puts God in a box, and tells Him what He can and cannot do!

Romans 9-11 is actually about covenant, but you do not understand God as a covenant making God therefore everything falls apart for you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God has purposed salvation to go worldwide.
Not everyone ever born however.
Those who are the object of salvation were elected and given to the Son.
He dies a covenant death for them.
He seeks and saves each one,not one is lost.
Romans deals with specific issues.
You have shown woeful ignorance of the book,and yet spout off as if you had a clue.
You seem to have an anti Calvinist agenda.
Thats okay.You are not the first,you might not be the last.
These men have answered you at every turn.

I am not interested in ANY ism, whether Calvin or anyone else, just the Bible.

Simply put, I challenge ANY one on BB, to show from John 3:15-18, that it does not plainly teach,

1. God does not love the entire human race.
2. That Jesus Christ did not come into the world to die for the sins of the entire human race.
3. That ONLY those who believe (which includes repentence), will be saved, but those who don't, will be eternally lost.

 

[canadyjd]

I am not interested in ANY ism, whether Calvin or anyone else, just the Bible.

Simply put, I challenge ANY one on BB, to show from John 3:15-18, that it does not plainly teach,

1. God does not love the entire human race.
2. That Jesus Christ did not come into the world to die for the sins of the entire human race.
3. That ONLY those who believe (which includes repentence), will be saved, but those who don't, will be eternally lost.

John 3:15-18 does not represent the entire revelation of God concerning salvation.

If you ignore large parts of scripture that specifically address salvation, I suppose you could believe almost anything, including universal salvation, works based salvation, baptismal regeneration, ability to lose salvation etc….

You seem to want to pick the scripture that supports your position and ignore the rest.

It far better to harmonize and reconcile those passages which is what reformed theology does.

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3:15-18 does not represent the entire revelation of God concerning salvation.

If you ignore large parts of scripture that specifically address salvation, I suppose you could believe almost anything, including universal salvation, works based salvation, baptismal regeneration, ability to lose salvation etc….

You seem to want to pick the scripture that supports your position and ignore the rest.

It far better to harmonize and reconcile those passages which is what reformed theology does.

peace to you

THIS !

 

[SavedByGrace]

John 3:15-18 does not represent the entire revelation of God concerning salvation.

If you ignore large parts of scripture that specifically address salvation, I suppose you could believe almost anything, including universal salvation, works based salvation, baptismal regeneration, ability to lose salvation etc….

You seem to want to pick the scripture that supports your position and ignore the rest.

It far better to harmonize and reconcile those passages which is what reformed theology does.

peace to you

How about just dealing with the passage from John 3. It is there for a purpose

 

[Dave G]

My apologies for adding another reply,
but I felt that the below needed to be addressed.

then you show just ONE verse in Romans chapter 9 that teaches election to salvation!

" (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" ( Romans 9:11 ).

Here we see the clear statement that being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election shall stand.
It is not of works, but "of" Him that calls.
This tells us that what is previously being described in Romans 9:6-10 descends from God alone, and is in no way the product of man's efforts.

What is described, is here:

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 ).

There it is, right there...
Who is a child of God, and who is not.

It is concluded here:

" What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ( Romans 9:22-26 ).


I'm not sure how, when a believer in Jesus Christ reads this carefully, that so many who profess Him actually miss it.
To me, it doesn't need any "interpretation" ( neither does the rest of the Bible )...
It simply needs believing.

That said,
This chapter, all by itself, refutes the idea that we as men have any choice in the matter of salvation...
When it is God's purposes according to election that will stand.

Those He has "called" are His children.
Those vessels of mercy, afore ( before ) prepared unto His glory, are all that will be saved.
Romans 9 is the core of God's word when it comes to who His mercy and grace are bestowed upon.
It teaches that God does indeed elect, or choose, people to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).



May God bless you all as you prayerfully consider these words.

 

[SavedByGrace]

My apologies for adding another reply,
but I felt that the below needed to be addressed.


" (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" ( Romans 9:11 ).

Here we see the clear statement that being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election shall stand.
It is not of works, but "of" Him that calls.
This tells us that what is previously being described in Romans 9:6-10 descends from God alone, and is in no way the product of man's efforts.

What is described, is here:

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." ( Romans 9:6-8 ).

There it is, right there...
Who is a child of God, and who is not.

It is concluded here:

" What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ( Romans 9:22-26 ).


I'm not sure how, when a believer in Jesus Christ reads this carefully, that so many who profess Him actually miss it.
To me, it doesn't need any "interpretation" ( neither does the rest of the Bible )...
It simply needs believing.

That said,
This chapter, all by itself, refutes the idea that we as men have any choice in the matter of salvation...
When it is God's purposes according to election that will stand.

Those He has "called" are His children.
Those vessels of mercy, afore ( before ) prepared unto His glory, are all that will be saved.

Romans 9 is the core of God's word when it comes to who His mercy and grace are bestowed upon.



May God bless you all as you prayerfully consider these words.

this still does not show "election to salvation", which the Reformed/Calvinists take this chapter to teach

 

[AustinC]

I am not interested in ANY ism, whether Calvin or anyone else, just the Bible.

Simply put, I challenge ANY one on BB, to show from John 3:15-18, that it does not plainly teach,

1. God does not love the entire human race.
2. That Jesus Christ did not come into the world to die for the sins of the entire human race.
3. That ONLY those who believe (which includes repentence), will be saved, but those who don't, will be eternally lost.

It's funny how you framed this, not to exegete John 3:15-18, but to prove a negative. Simply put, you are dishonest in truly desiring to seek what God actually says.