Reformers' interpretations of the AntiChrist

[Hobie]

The RCC is not Christ's church. However, it is one of the earliest apostasies. And certainly the greatest persecutor of Christians of all the many apostates. The RCC failed to exterminate True Christianity. Though it did murder millions trying to. You see there's one little hurdle the RCC apostacy can't overcome. Jesus said His Church would be the persecuted, not the persecutor. The RCC is and always has been Rome.

Very true..

 

[MarysSon]

water baptism done to those who already have been saved by grace of God, and the lord promised to never leave nor forsake His own, to be able to save forever all that he saves, do you believe Him?

WRONG.
You don't get saved without Baptism . . .

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG.
You don't get saved without Baptism . . .

1 Pet. 3:21-22
his prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

So the thief by Jesus did not go to Paradise then?

 

[MarysSon]

So the thief by Jesus did not go to Paradise then?

WRONG.
The Thief benefited from his desire to follow Christ. He couldn't be Baptized because he was "busy" at the time being executed.

He is the first example of what the Church deems as the Baptism of Desire.

"WHATEVER YOU bind or loose . . ."
(Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)

 

[AustinC]

Soooo, you're saying that you DON'T have to repent??
That's NOT what Scripture says . . .

Acts 2:38
Peter [said] to them, “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

We don't just get to sit there in open rebellion against God and get forgiven without repenting.
This isn't "works salvation". It's cooperation with God's grace.

In that verse, Peter emphasizes repentance. Before this verse we read:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Notice that God already called them out. Then in verse 38 the effect of God's work is repentance. God, by the Holy Spirit, baptizes (immerses) us into Christ Jesus as a seal of our eternal redemption in Christ.

No person, whom God has adopted, will live in rebellion against their Father. We will repent...just like the Prodigal son.

What is not taught in scripture is what you are teaching and what your church is teaching you.
Purgatory does not exist. Sins do not continually need a re-sacrifice of Christ for you to maintain your redemption.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So how are Christians of this 'era' any more correct, as they are still rejecting the truth in the scripture, putting aside the Commandments of God and clearly picking up traditions of man.

I think your question, with a period at the end, would be more accurate if it addressed professing-Christians rather than Christians. How can those that are "rejecting the truth in the scripture, putting aside the Commandments of God and clearly picking up traditions of man" be identified as Christians?

[3Jo 1:4 ESV] I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.

[Mat 7:21 ESV] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[MarysSon]

In that verse, Peter emphasizes repentance. Before this verse we read:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Notice that God already called them out. Then in verse 38 the effect of God's work is repentance. God, by the Holy Spirit, baptizes (immerses) us into Christ Jesus as a seal of our eternal redemption in Christ.

No person, whom God has adopted, will live in rebellion against their Father. We will repent...just like the Prodigal son.

What is not taught in scripture is what you are teaching and what your church is teaching you.
Purgatory does not exist. Sins do not continually need a re-sacrifice of Christ for you to maintain your redemption.

Sorry - but the Bible disagrees with you.

First of all - the idea that you DON'T have to repent of future sins is a Protestant invention and completely UNBIBLICAL.

Secondly - the people in Acts 2 hadn't yet repented or been Baptized - so they were NOT justified.

Finally - the NT is filled with warnings for converted, born again Christians NOT to fall back into willful sin or they will LOSE their security.
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG.
The Thief benefited from his desire to follow Christ. He couldn't be Baptized because he was "busy" at the time being executed.

He is the first example of what the Church deems as the Baptism of Desire.

"WHATEVER YOU bind or loose . . ."
(Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23)

is that where the RCC gets the view that sincere Jews/Muslims/ other religions will get to Heaven?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry - but the Bible disagrees with you.

First of all - the idea that you DON'T have to repent of future sins is a Protestant invention and completely UNBIBLICAL.

Secondly - the people in Acts 2 hadn't yet repented or been Baptized - so they were NOT justified.

Finally - the NT is filled with warnings for converted, born again Christians NOT to fall back into willful sin or they will LOSE their security.
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

NONE of those passages refer to really saved persons losing eternal life though, and the reason why you see it that way is due to the RCC salvation being by mixture of grace and your good works!

 

[MarysSon]

is that where the RCC gets the view that sincere Jews/Muslims/ other religions will get to Heaven?

Nope.
A variation of that inaccurate statement comes from the teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

 

[MarysSon]

NONE of those passages refer to really saved persons losing eternal life though, and the reason why you see it that way is due to the RCC salvation being by mixture of grace and your good works!

WRONG.

Read the brown text below EACH passage.
For example - these TWO passages, where the word "Epignosis" is explained:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

There is NO getting around the fact that these warnings are written to born-again BELIEVERS with a full and experiential knowledge of Christ - and NOT just anybody.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope.
A variation of that inaccurate statement comes from the teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

Which is what? Don't have available my Latin lexicon!

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG.

Read the brown text below EACH passage.
For example - these TWO passages, where the word "Epignosis" is explained:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

There is NO getting around the fact that these warnings are written to born-again BELIEVERS with a full and experiential knowledge of Christ - and NOT just anybody.

Jesus claimed that NONE that the Father gives to him shall ever be lost, and that he will raise up ALL of them in last days! You are calling Him a liar here!

 

[MarysSon]

Which is what? Don't have available my Latin lexicon!

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church There is No Salvation) - which states:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church There is No Salvation) - which states:

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This theology came right out of hell, as it changes the savior from Jesus to the RCC itself!

 

[MarysSon]

Jesus claimed that NONE that the Father gives to him shall ever be lost, and that he will raise up ALL of them in last days! You are calling Him a liar here!

WRONG.

Jesus said that nobody could snatch them from His hand (John 10:28).
We can walk away by our own volition.

 

[Yeshua1]

WRONG.

Jesus said that nobody could snatch them from His hand (John 10:28).
We can walk away by our own volition.

We have new natures and the Holy Spirit sealed in us, and your will can overcome the will of God?

 

[MarysSon]

This theology came right out of hell, as it changes the savior from Jesus to the RCC itself!

This is absolutely FALSE.

We are saved by God's grace - by the BLOOD of Christ shed on Calvary. But we are saved THROUGH the Church He built (Matt. 16:18), which is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[MarysSon]

We have new natures and the Holy Spirit sealed in us, and your will can overcome the will of God?

We have a FREE will until the day we DIE.
That's why we are told that the one who endures to the END will be saved (Matt. 24:13).

We can choose to stay with Christ or walk away like the Prodigal Son and Judas did.
Don't forget ALL of those believers who walked away in John 6:66 and returned to their former way of life . . .

 

[Yeshua1]

This is absolutely FALSE.

We are saved by God's grace - by the BLOOD of Christ shed on Calvary. But we are saved THROUGH the Church He built (Matt. 16:18), which is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

You are confusing the Body of Christ and the Church of rome, NOT same thing!