I know that John told us that those who walk away are mere professors of Christ only!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Reformers' interpretations of the AntiChrist
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Okay - since you don't believe it's the FIRST century Church (Catholic Church) - which Protestant denomination do YOU believe is the "real" Church?You are confusing the Body of Christ and the Church of rome, NOT same thing!
Evidence, please . . .
Really?I know that John told us that those who walk away are mere professors of Christ only!
Where did he say that - in context?
The real and true church is the Body of Christ, which is made up of all of the redeemed! regardless what church label they were members of!Okay - since you don't believe it's the FIRST century Church (Catholic Church) - which Protestant denomination do YOU believe is the "real" Church?
Evidence, please . . .
Jesus built ONE Church.The real and true church is the Body of Christ, which is made up of all of the redeemed! regardless what church label they were members of!
He didn't build tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering churches that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit. MEN have been doing that since the 16th century . . .
he has but one true Church, it is the sinners saved by him in history, regardless if Baptist, Catholic, Methodist etc label was on the physical building!Jesus built ONE Church.
He didn't build tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering churches that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" by the Holy Spirit. MEN have been doing that since the 16th century . . .
And WHO said it was about a "physical building"??he has but one true Church, it is the sinners saved by him in history, regardless if Baptist, Catholic, Methodist etc label was on the physical building!
Christ built His Church - and MEN in the 16th century decided that they would create other churches to be "better" than his.
True reformation comes from within - NOT from inventing new sects . . .
God sent to the Catholic Church the Reformation, a way to get back to the true Gospel, but Rome officially went Apostate in the Council of Trent, where it rejected Pauline Justification !And WHO said it was about a "physical building"??
Christ built His Church - and MEN in the 16th century decided that they would create other churches to be "better" than his.
True reformation comes from within - NOT from inventing new sects . . .
Then YOU are calling Christ a LIAR.God sent to the Catholic Church the Reformation, a way to get back to the true Gospel, but Rome officially went Apostate in the Council of Trent, where it rejected Pauline Justification !
He promised His Church that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it (Matt. 16:19).
By saying that it went "apostate" is to call Him a liar . . .
No, for the true church held to the true Gospel, not the false one of Rome!Then YOU are calling Christ a LIAR.
He promised His Church that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it (Matt. 16:19).
By saying that it went "apostate" is to call Him a liar . . .
Regardless of what spin YOU put on it - the ORIGINAL Church went into apostasy, as you say - which makes Christ a LIAR.No, for the true church held to the true Gospel, not the false one of Rome!
You can't have it both ways . . .
RCC is not the one true church, so the true Church of Christ has never went into Apostasy, as they have always been his "little flock"Regardless of what spin YOU put on it - the ORIGINAL Church went into apostasy, as you say - which makes Christ a LIAR.
You can't have it both ways . . .
The Catholic church goes ALL the way back to the Apostles - and NO Protestant sect can make this claim.RCC is not the one true church, so the true Church of Christ has never went into Apostasy, as they have always been his "little flock"
Here is an excerpt from FIRST century Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius - who was a student of the Apostle John:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Doesn't even SOUND Protestant . . .
Sounds like heresy creeping into the Body of Christ even early on!The Catholic church goes ALL the way back to the Apostles - and NO Protestant sect can make this claim.
Here is an excerpt from FIRST century Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius - who was a student of the Apostle John:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the CATHOLIC CHURCH (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
Doesn't even SOUND Protestant . . .
No one ever says that Christians are not called to repentance. I say that only Christians can or will repent. The Holy Spirit, who baptized us into Christ, brings us to repentance and shows us our repentance.Sorry - but the Bible disagrees with you.
First of all - the idea that you DON'T have to repent of future sins is a Protestant invention and completely UNBIBLICAL.
Secondly - the people in Acts 2 hadn't yet repented or been Baptized - so they were NOT justified.
Finally - the NT is filled with warnings for converted, born again Christians NOT to fall back into willful sin or they will LOSE their security.
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Paul confirms that God's grace is greater than my sin, but I am not to continue in sin, just because God's grace covers my sin. (Romans 6)
Paul then talks about the sin that he fights with daily and cries out to ask who will deliver him from his sin. (Romans 7)
Finally, Paul tells us that Jesus delivers us and that there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Chist Jesus. He goes on to say that "nothing can separate us from the love of God." (Romans 8)
Have you failed to read this glorious presentation in Romans that entirely destroys your statements?
Please, go read it.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6-8 - English Standard Version
No - sounds like proof of the Catholic Church from a 1st Century student of an Apostle . . .Sounds like heresy creeping into the Body of Christ even early on!
I FULLY agree with your quote above in RED.No one ever says that Christians are not called to repentance. I say that only Christians can or will repent. The Holy Spirit, who baptized us into Christ, brings us to repentance and shows us our repentance.
Paul confirms that God's grace is greater than my sin, but I am not to continue in sin, just because God's grace covers my sin. (Romans 6)
Paul then talks about the sin that he fights with daily and cries out to ask who will deliver him from his sin. (Romans 7)
Finally, Paul tells us that Jesus delivers us and that there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He goes on to say that "nothing can separate us from the love of God." (Romans 8)
Have you failed to read this glorious presentation in Romans that entirely destroys your statements?
Please, go read it.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6-8 - English Standard Version
However - this doesn't address those who are NOT in Christ because they have distanced themselves or cut themselves OFF.
And, by the way - Romans 8 doesn't address separating yourself from the love of God.
That's something we CAN do.
Remember what Christ told Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
THAT is a perfect example of separating yourself from God's love.
God doesn't force His love on anyone. His gives it freely. It's up to us to accept or reject . . .
Paul warned us that even in his time false wolves were creeping in among the flock of Christ!No - sounds like proof of the Catholic Church from a 1st Century student of an Apostle . . .
No Catholic who is going strictly by what their Church proclaims can ever have assurance of their salvation, as in the end, its works based!No one ever says that Christians are not called to repentance. I say that only Christians can or will repent. The Holy Spirit, who baptized us into Christ, brings us to repentance and shows us our repentance.
Paul confirms that God's grace is greater than my sin, but I am not to continue in sin, just because God's grace covers my sin. (Romans 6)
Paul then talks about the sin that he fights with daily and cries out to ask who will deliver him from his sin. (Romans 7)
Finally, Paul tells us that Jesus delivers us and that there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Chist Jesus. He goes on to say that "nothing can separate us from the love of God." (Romans 8)
Have you failed to read this glorious presentation in Romans that entirely destroys your statements?
Please, go read it.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6-8 - English Standard Version
Perhaps you are unaware of Jesus words. A Christian cannot snatch himself or herself out of God's hands. When God chooses you, you will persevere and you will remain in God's hand.I FULLY agree with your quote above in RED.
However - this doesn't address those who are NOT in Christ because they have distanced themselves or cut themselves OFF.
And, by the way - Romans 8 doesn't address separating yourself from the love of God.
That's something we CAN do.
Remember what Christ told Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
THAT is a perfect example of separating yourself from God's love.
God doesn't force His love on anyone. His gives it freely. It's up to us to accept or reject . . .
What you are describing is people who self-proclaim faith in Christ, but God never chose them nor knew them.
Your churches infant baptism and it's communion table never saved anyone. Works do not save you.
John 10:14-18,24-30 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
- Status
- Not open for further replies.