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Reformers' interpretations of the AntiChrist
- Thread starter Hobie
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We are commanded to now work once saved in the good works prepared beforehand by God for us, not to be done before we get saved or as part of getting saved!
And once again - the Bible disagrees with you . . .
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
I explained it to you at least twice in other threads. You have butchered what James is saying and in so doing you deny the rest of scripture.
Your prooftexting is quite abysmal, MarysSon.
Please, read the entire context of those verses by looking at the passage that surrounds it. If you do so, you will see how far off the mark you truly are.
However, your church does what you have done, which is why they have such poor doctrine.
If it's so "abysmal" - why do YOU and every other anti-Catholic here keep dodging the "Epignosis" issue??
Unlike the Greek words "gnosis" or "oida" which describe an intellectual knowledge - "Epignosis" describes a full, experiential and relational knowledge - similar to that of a husband and wife.
Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 speak of people with an "Epignosis" of Christ in danger of falling away and LOSING their security.
When you have addressed this - then we can have an intelligent conversation . . .
Austin look real close... and quote yourself. You haven't even given basic scripture to explain your view.
Please lets do the "inductive" method see how "butchered" James is.
You talk a game and walk a zero. You sit back and say well NOW I'm being unreasonable because I'm repeatedly asking you for scripture that TEACHES your point.
All you gotta do is put a link down..... I gave you scripture here and there. You have given us NOTHING.
Now you want to attack our character because you can't provide any thing against the content.j
You should be HAPPY I am so demanding of scripture. And you should be absolutely HAPPY to PROVIDE IT.
That is all I am saying is SHOW IT TO ME. Instead you want to turn this into a fight.
Neither verses teach what you claim. In fact, both Peter and the writer to the Hebrews confirm the security of the elect.
But, if you wish to live in fear instead of living in the joy of your salvation, you go ahead and wallow in fear. I will accept what Jesus says when he tells me he will never leave me nor forsake me.
Read all of the Bible because it all points to God choosing, electing predestinating and protecting his chosen people of the promise.
Your desire to live in fear is for you and you alone. Go wallow in your unsecure life.
"Go wallow in your unsecure life."
I asked for the gospel and there it is, the Calvinist gospel.
The Christlike attitude of spiritual nazis.
John 13
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
This is how we know you are not.
Not even most protestants agree with that trash.
Didn't want to go line by line, just another hypocrite's lie.
You can't even call yourself a disciple of Christ because you can't say you are saved.
As for nazi's, the Roman Catholic Church supported them and hid them in Argentina and Chili.
Instead, we see Calvinists hiding Jews in Holland and in the Mountains of France where Roman Catholics had hunted Protestants and tried to kill them.
Utilyan, you are on the wrong side of holiness and caring for the lost. You are also on the wrong side of doctrinal truth.
Jesus won't ever forsake one of His own because He is ALWAYS faithful.
Man is NOT always faithful and that is why so many forsake Him.
As for Peter and the author of Hebrews "confirming" the security of the elect - you are dead wrong.
They are warning converted, born-again Christians not to fall back into a life of willful sin or they will LOSE their security - and "Epignosis" is the key word here that confirms this. This is why I kept asking YOU and others here to address this - and you ALL dodged the issue.
As I told you before - this word indicates a full, experiential and relational knowledge - not just an intellectual knowledge (oida, gnosis). Here is a litany or Protestant scholarship on the word "Epignosis" . . .
Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”
J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"
The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul
Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith
You contradict yourself. You say Jesus won't ever forsake his own, then you say his own can forsake him.
But, if they are his own...Jesus won't ever forsake them.
Do you see your problem?
The Bible absolutely agrees with your first assertion, as do I. It's your contradictory second statement that is false.
God gives his own faith to believe and perseverence to believe.
But, if you are like utilyan, you can not say you are God's own. You have to hope that you have all your sins absolved before death or... either purgatory or hell for you. You cannot ever say you are God's own. That's sad.
And YOUR problem is that you don't seem to understand what sin is.
Sin is moral evil - it is rebellion against God. The idea that we CAN commit moral evil against God and NOT have to repent is unscriptural.
The Bible is filled with verses that tell us our salvation is secured IF we endure in faith and DO the will of God (Heb. 3:14-19, Heb. 10:36, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).
It is also filled with admonitions to the faithful to try to REMAIN faithful in order to receive our reward. If we were "automatically" saved and secure forever - we would have NO NEED for these admonitions (Psalm 97:10, 1 Tim. 4:13-16, 1 Tim. 6:20, 2 Tim. 1:13-14, 1 Cor. 15:58, 1 Cor. 16:13, Gal. 5:1, Eph. 6:13, 2 Tim. 4:6-8, 1 Cor. 4:2 , 1 Pet. 4:19 , James 1:12, Heb. 10:23, Rev. 2:10).
God gives us perseverance IF we seek it - but NOT if we don't.
ALL of the verses above attest to the need of praying for perseverance.
I AM God's own - but like everybody else who sins, I can walk away from Him.
It happens every day . . .
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one would boast.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one would boast.
Oh so Jews are saved now? Nonsense you ready to fry them for eternity.
"You can't even call yourself a disciple of Christ because you can't say you are saved."
Spiritual Nazis like you don't get cleaner no matter how dirtier the guy next to you is.
Neither can Paul:
1 Corinthians 4
3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
Yet you go passing judgement. There is a past, present and future tense to salvation.
Your God ordains rape of children "For his glory" and you pray to praise it. Your the sickest form of christianity.
Westboro Baptist are the SMARTEST Calvinist. Your God hates _______ (fill in the blank) Your God Hates Black people. From the foundation before they were created.
I fully understand what sin is. I also understand that Jesus atoning sacrifice paid for ALL my sin, past, present and future.
You think Jesus only paid for the past and thus you shudder with fear for the present and future.
I trust what God promises.
We have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and God will claim us as His own one day, period!
WRONG.
I fully believe that Christ paid for ALL sin - past, present and future. That's what Redemption is.
HOWEVER - we are not forgiven of future sin until we repent of it. That's where Salvation comes in.
Provided you REMAIN faithful and in His kindness (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
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