did paul show them lack of love in Romans, John in Revelation, or Giod Himself at Sodom?
You see to have Love =acceptance of lifestyle!
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- Thread starter Judith
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did paul show them lack of love in Romans, John in Revelation, or Giod Himself at Sodom?
You see to have Love =acceptance of lifestyle!
Same-sex "marriage" is desired by G-L couples to, among other things, "legitimize" their conduct. Why would a Christian wish to participate in that? I don't think that an adulterer or a thief who is getting married is trying to legitimize adultery or thievery.
If I'm selling a basic product, I wouldn't withhold it from the homosexual or the adulterer (assuming that I even knew of the sin, which would be unlikely.) However, participating/enabling the sinful act would itself be sin on my part, whether helping an adulterer to conect with his/her illicit partner, or helping a same-sex couple to get married, or knowingly enabling any of the other sins noted on the long list of references posted above.
If I'm selling a basic product, I wouldn't withhold it from the homosexual or the adulterer (assuming that I even knew of the sin, which would be unlikely.) However, participating/enabling the sinful act would itself be sin on my part, whether helping an adulterer to conect with his/her illicit partner, or helping a same-sex couple to get married, or knowingly enabling any of the other sins noted on the long list of references posted above.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
You're STILL trying to sell that lie that the sin for which Sodom was destroyed to be the homosexual offense? The word of God says that All Scripture is GOD-BREATHED, not YESHUA1 breathed. Scripture shows that Sodom was destroyed because there were no righteous people. SO quit with the false teaching just because you want this sin to be worse than all others.
God destroyed many cities including women, children and livestock. What were the sins of those cities?
As was said yesterday, you can save that talking out the side of your neck thing that so many int he church do. You don't show love for someone by summarily rejecting them with every word out your mouth. Baking them a cake has nothing to do with perverting the message to come to Jesus. YOU do that with YOUR message.
Again, what are you talking about? I don't know of anyone on this board who has ever said that it's okay to keep practicing ANY sin. So let it go already.
Again, stuck on one sin. DO you do the same with the other abominations?
good!
If we would be forced to do that, why not have christian vusinesses forced to do the primting/photos/catering at playboy mansion?
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I'm talking to YESHUA1, not Paul. WHY don't you deal with what YOU are doing? Where's YOUR love? ALL I see is hypocrisy and a hitch in your craw about one particular sin.
Nope. I see to have love=having Jesus. Your version of love is not a love I care to have. If Jesus's love was as nasty as what you display as love, then we'd all be in trouble.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I said what I'm about to say about Obama and healthcare. I said that perhaps God allowed that man in office to provide healthcare for the poor, the widowed and the orphaned because WE, the CHURCH, weren't doing it.
Likewise, perhaps He will also use the legal system to force Christians to serve those they don't think are worthy of being served. As was said before, the lost are acting the way they are supposed to. Why do you, one who claims to have Christ, seem to act with no love when it comes to those who commit this one sin?
You mean the love he showed to sodom?
you mean the love that demands that we MUST see sin in our lives as being wrong, and needs to be corrected, or else that allows satan a wedge between us and God?
you mean the love that calls active homosexuality sin against God and themselves?
That love?
Why is truth God said not correct?
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Zaac
Well-Known Member
The love showed for Sodom is the same love showed for all sin. There was no one righteous in Sodom. Had it not been for the blood of Christ, your unrighteousness, just like theirs and everybody else's would be worthy of the same wrath from God that is inseparable from His love.
Then there must be a huge wedge between you and God as you continue in this blatant sin that you keep trying to frame as some sort of righteousness.
I mean love that says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. That but God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
You want to show them that you love them rather than this stinking air of superiority that you give for your own sin in comparison to theirs? Then point out to them that your sin is an abomination too. But Christ STILL died for you.
You're in a sad state if you think the things you're saying equate to the love of Christ.
Zaac, why is it so important to you to force people to participate in that which they do not want to participate?
Can you honestly read Romans 1 and not see this particular perversion listed right along with lots of other vile sins?
No one is suggesting that we are not to love the sinner. You sound as if we must also love the sin.
And know, people cannot be forced to participate. We can refuse service no matter what the law says. We may be punished, even killed, for not participating. But we cannot be forced to participate.
While I'm asking questions, why is this one group of sinners asking for a free pass as a separate group of people? Why is there not an adulterer's pride march? Why not a blessing ceremony for gossips?
We recognize all other sins as something a person does. Why should this particular sin be something people are?
Can you honestly read Romans 1 and not see this particular perversion listed right along with lots of other vile sins?
No one is suggesting that we are not to love the sinner. You sound as if we must also love the sin.
And know, people cannot be forced to participate. We can refuse service no matter what the law says. We may be punished, even killed, for not participating. But we cannot be forced to participate.
While I'm asking questions, why is this one group of sinners asking for a free pass as a separate group of people? Why is there not an adulterer's pride march? Why not a blessing ceremony for gossips?
We recognize all other sins as something a person does. Why should this particular sin be something people are?
Zaac
Well-Known Member
You are DEFINITELY confused. If you don't want to love folks the way that Christ does, there will be no one who forces you to.
Sure can. I can also read where God views a whole lot of things as vile.
Nobody said any such thing. I believe TND said it best yesterday
Because despite the whole love the sinner hate the sin words, that ain't what's coming out and that isn't what's being heard.
Then go to your death knowing that Christ has not intended for His Church to marginalize, discriminate and denunciate against anyone under the guise of being holy.
This cake stuff ain't even about taking a stand for Christ. They want to take a stand for their religiosity and try to say it's for Christ. If you're not committing the act or endorsing the act, provide the service for which you opened your business.
Off topic. Start another thread.
That's your fallacy and the fallacy of those who want to make the sin something they are. Being gay is no more a sin than being straight. Gay and straight are sexual orientations. They aren't sinful.
YOU seem to be equating gay with committing gay sexual acts. Scripture says that certain acts are sinful whether you're straight or gay.
The fallacy is that we must accept their perverted behavior and take part in it in order to love them. That is the fallacy.
I would not service any celebration of any of those things. We're not talking about not serving the people doing these things but instead a celebration of that sin. Big difference.
i will keep on saying that its THE sin that people doing it have conviced amny of the pastors and churches that its a legitimate life style choose, and that God no longers sees it as sinful behaviour, and accepts even gay marriages!
Some? Are there some that are not?
Still and anon Zaac works to mitigate the offenses of Sodom.
If you were checking out your groceries at Wally World and knew that all of the checkers were gay-----what would you do?? Just checking!!:type::type:
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
It could happen, a friend of mine that works there told me several years ago that Wally World had to put gay people on their boards or be sued. I use to watch Good Morning America on weekday morning but after the black newscaster woman came out of the closet I quit watching and turned the channel.
Actually, zaac, the first lie of the devil in regards to the whole gay straight thing is that we either are gay or are straight.
Truth is, we are humans either male or female. That is all. Not straight males and females or gay males and lesbians.
Some humans mate according to God's law. Some humans do not mate according to God's law. Some humans do not mate at all.
Now, if you are not mating at all, why broadcast who you want to mate with?
If you are mating against God's law, why try to force others to participate and legitimize what you are doing?
We recognize all people are sinners--every last one of us. But in today's world some want to pull out this sin or that make it their identity. Those with lust for their own gender want to be considered of a special orientation. Those with a desire to pursue drunkenness want to be seen as suffering from a disease called addiction. Those with inordinate pride and self love try to convince they are victims of low self esteem. Those without the grace of self discipline try to convince us they are really just "being authentic."
What you see as the church being harsh and unloving is just the church being what the church has always been--honest. Sin is still sin. And yes, the church reacts very harshly with those trying to legitimize and define away sin.
Or it should. Otherwise it winds up like the two divided, fractured, and one now closed churches in our town. Seems they had to vote and decide of sodomy was still sin. One decided not, and is now closed. The other is in the process of fracturing and may die over this issue.
All I can say is what issue? The Bible does not speak of a special class of people known as gay or lesbian. It speaks of people, period. And it forbids men having sex with men or women with women. Not hard to understand at all.
And no, we need not react lovingly nor bake cakes and arrange flowers for those wanting to legitimize man/man or woman/woman physical relations. Nor, for that matter, for those coming in and wanting the goodies to celebrate adultery, murder, gossip, gluttony, drunkenness, greed, or any other sin.
Were I a baker, I would not bake cakes to celebrate same gender copulating. Nor would I knowingly bake a cake to celebrate an abortion, or celebrate "two years cheating on my wife anniversary", or "cheated on my income tax again this year", etc.
You say there are "gay people" who are not having relations. How can that be? What makes one, to quote one version of the Bible, a "homosexual offender" is what one does. Otherwise one is just a person Satan is tempting with some specific sin.
If Satan tempts you to pass on a juicy bit of gossip, and you do not do so, are you still a gossip? Do you still need special kid glove treatment so as not to hurt your feelings as a gossip? Why would you identify yourself at all as a gossip if you DID NOT GOSSIP?
Satan loves to do this. Loves to paint himself as the victim of the mean old Christians. We need to be even more honest and call him out and expose him, not pander to him rather than offend him.
Truth is, we are humans either male or female. That is all. Not straight males and females or gay males and lesbians.
Some humans mate according to God's law. Some humans do not mate according to God's law. Some humans do not mate at all.
Now, if you are not mating at all, why broadcast who you want to mate with?
If you are mating against God's law, why try to force others to participate and legitimize what you are doing?
We recognize all people are sinners--every last one of us. But in today's world some want to pull out this sin or that make it their identity. Those with lust for their own gender want to be considered of a special orientation. Those with a desire to pursue drunkenness want to be seen as suffering from a disease called addiction. Those with inordinate pride and self love try to convince they are victims of low self esteem. Those without the grace of self discipline try to convince us they are really just "being authentic."
What you see as the church being harsh and unloving is just the church being what the church has always been--honest. Sin is still sin. And yes, the church reacts very harshly with those trying to legitimize and define away sin.
Or it should. Otherwise it winds up like the two divided, fractured, and one now closed churches in our town. Seems they had to vote and decide of sodomy was still sin. One decided not, and is now closed. The other is in the process of fracturing and may die over this issue.
All I can say is what issue? The Bible does not speak of a special class of people known as gay or lesbian. It speaks of people, period. And it forbids men having sex with men or women with women. Not hard to understand at all.
And no, we need not react lovingly nor bake cakes and arrange flowers for those wanting to legitimize man/man or woman/woman physical relations. Nor, for that matter, for those coming in and wanting the goodies to celebrate adultery, murder, gossip, gluttony, drunkenness, greed, or any other sin.
Were I a baker, I would not bake cakes to celebrate same gender copulating. Nor would I knowingly bake a cake to celebrate an abortion, or celebrate "two years cheating on my wife anniversary", or "cheated on my income tax again this year", etc.
You say there are "gay people" who are not having relations. How can that be? What makes one, to quote one version of the Bible, a "homosexual offender" is what one does. Otherwise one is just a person Satan is tempting with some specific sin.
If Satan tempts you to pass on a juicy bit of gossip, and you do not do so, are you still a gossip? Do you still need special kid glove treatment so as not to hurt your feelings as a gossip? Why would you identify yourself at all as a gossip if you DID NOT GOSSIP?
Satan loves to do this. Loves to paint himself as the victim of the mean old Christians. We need to be even more honest and call him out and expose him, not pander to him rather than offend him.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Perhaps because they are lost and looking for love after being rejected again and again?
Damaged people will use whatever they can to cope with their situation. Be it sex, alcohol, pills, bad friendships. You name it. Broken people do what they have to do to try and survive.
The church is supposed to judge those in the church. Present the Gospel to those outside the church and stop getting caught up in arguments about issues that leave folks acting just as unlovingly as they say.
There is nothing loving about marginalizing and making people feel rejected. And if that's what the church thinks it's supposed to do, then it's time for God to get us on out the way so that we can't do any more damage.
Not even a debate. It is what God says it is.
Apparently it is hard to understand otherwise the church would stop trying to argue with them over this issue and just lovingly preach the Gospel. Providing a cake isn't gonna make God's word any less true and it might just give you the opportunity to plant the seed that allows the lost to be snatched from the fires.
Which direction does it point them in when Christians say I can't provide a cake for your "wedding" because you're gay? A lot of our STANDS are about US and not about Christ.
No you need not. Just say no. going into details about a specific sin reason is ill advised.
And that's your choice.
That must have been for someone else or just a colloquial YOU.:laugh:
Again this is the fallacy of the Church. They aren't identifying themselves with a sin like gossip. Those in and out of the church are. They are identifying themselves according to an attraction and attraction, unlike gossip, isn't a sin.
We in the church and those outside the church whose prejudices have been influenced by the church often equate gay with having gay sex. The gay sex could be part of it but it doesn't have to be. Just as someone can clearly identify as straight and never have had sex.
And mean old Christians like to blame Satan when Satan hasn't had to lift a finger because he figured out a long time agao that prideful Christians would rally to an issue much quicker than they would display the love of Christ.
For so long homosexuals were kept in the closet. When found out they were fired from jobs, run out of town, harassed, beat up, refused services, and generally loathed. They would even be disowned by their immediate family. I remember hearing stories of folks going to look for some "queers" to beat up. In the not to distant past, homosexual acts even carried with them the death penalty. In the nineteenth century a British sailor could be hung by the neck from a yard arm if convicted of homosexual acts. In many ways, the way society in general treated homosexual was wrong. We did not have to agree with their lifestyle but, to treat them with such hatred was wrong then and still is.
Now that they are getting some power they are simply returning the favor. Discrimination can work both ways. Try being a white Christian male in today's society. It's becoming open season! Meet the new whipping child of society. Move over homosexuals and meet the white Christian male.
Homosexuality is a perverted and destructive sin. And, within the church we are right to limit membership and leadership position to folks who are not actively involved in open and sinful lifestyles such as homosexuality, shacking up, and other perversions of God's intended purposes. But, to practice this type of discrimination out in the secular world puts us in danger of having the same type of discrimination dumped right back in our laps. The homosexual community is only giving back what was given to them.
Now that they are getting some power they are simply returning the favor. Discrimination can work both ways. Try being a white Christian male in today's society. It's becoming open season! Meet the new whipping child of society. Move over homosexuals and meet the white Christian male.
Homosexuality is a perverted and destructive sin. And, within the church we are right to limit membership and leadership position to folks who are not actively involved in open and sinful lifestyles such as homosexuality, shacking up, and other perversions of God's intended purposes. But, to practice this type of discrimination out in the secular world puts us in danger of having the same type of discrimination dumped right back in our laps. The homosexual community is only giving back what was given to them.
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[sex.
And mean old Christians like to blame Satan when Satan hasn't had to lift a finger because he figured out a long time agao that prideful Christians would rally to an issue much quicker than they would display the love of Christ.[/QUOTE]
actually, satan has been doijg VERY WELL getting the church to accept that gay living is an acceptable alternative lifestyle, that gay marriages are showing love of chrsit towards them by celebrating that union with them, and for having it no longer regarded as sinful behaviour among many believers!
EVETRY culture in world history that saw homosexuality and those practices as being a "good and loving" thing to celebrate and uphold had their nation go down the tubes, into the moral gutters...
Why do you seek to have america turn into debauched rome?
And mean old Christians like to blame Satan when Satan hasn't had to lift a finger because he figured out a long time agao that prideful Christians would rally to an issue much quicker than they would display the love of Christ.[/QUOTE]
actually, satan has been doijg VERY WELL getting the church to accept that gay living is an acceptable alternative lifestyle, that gay marriages are showing love of chrsit towards them by celebrating that union with them, and for having it no longer regarded as sinful behaviour among many believers!
EVETRY culture in world history that saw homosexuality and those practices as being a "good and loving" thing to celebrate and uphold had their nation go down the tubes, into the moral gutters...
Why do you seek to have america turn into debauched rome?
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