Are you implying God is bound by His own creation?
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Regarding Time...
- Thread starter humblethinker
- Start date
humblethinker
Active Member
Would you say then that if we cannot understand what scripture is saying about God then it doesn't mean what it says and it must surely be speaking anthropomorphically?
So, Jesus actually said and meant the words he said to the Father but the Holy Spirit has inspired it to be understood anthropomorphically?
humblethinker
Active Member
No. I don't see time being a 'thing' of creation, scripturally why should I?
No, I mean we cannot understand the depth of what is being said. We cannot understand the love between the Trinity, now in time and since when "before" time was created.
Yes...their love has always existed, still exists, and always will...something we cannot comprehend.
Because it is merely a measurement. The only thing eternal is the Godhead, not a measurement.
humblethinker
Active Member
I think your recollection is correct. "Time as we know it", yes, that is the important thing in his statement. We don't even know how we know it. We think we may know it. Why should we think that just because we assume that time didnt exist as we know it that time did not exist at all in any kind of manner? What makes us think, per scriptural evidence, that before creation it was impossible for any kind of time to exist? It seems we must be advised by philosophy that is outside of scriptural revelation. (of course for Convicted1 and Webdog this is NOT above our paygrade, no?)
humblethinker
Active Member
Maybe this is what is hanging us up... What you say makes sense for metered time (seconds, minutes, hours, etc). We do not know if God 'measured' duration before creation. Would you say it could not be the case that God measured duration in a way that we don't know? I think that there could exist that which our time measures without measurement having to exist.
If the Trinity is in relation to each other before the creation, and the relation between one another was love, (yes, this explanation is scriptural) why would you think that it is the case that God can not refer to these sequential events of love prior to creation?
Another point of consideration... It seems to me that metered time may be man's construct and not God's. Did God create mathematics or is it man's construct to help us understand, interpret and predict the reality that he created? Was poetic style, et al created by God? It is perfectly reasonable for God to use all of the such in communicating to and with us, and we see in scripture that he does just that. Were relationships created by God? No, they existed before creation. Relationship is a byproduct, for lack of a better word, of the interaction of the Trinity with each other, which happened prior to the moment of creation (this is scriptural too). I would say that relationship cannot exist if there is no give-and-take, if there is no sequence. The relationship of the Trinity is a basis for believing that some sort of referrentail sequence existed before creation. If you don't want to call it 'time' it can be called something else, but what you are proposing in "outside of time" seems to make relationship and sequence impossible.
quantumfaith
Active Member
"Eternity in the strict sense is solely an attribute of God, whereas time (temporal succession) is solely an attribute of creatures. Time and eternity stand as two sharply distinct modes of being. Each could conceivably exist without the other, for there is no intrinsic, genetic relationship between them."
http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/papers/Christian Approach to Phil of Time.pdf
http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/papers/Christian Approach to Phil of Time.pdf
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
A-series view of time, B-series view of time???????
I really haven't seen any Scriptural reference to A or B! Therefore, it seems that the OP falls in that category dismissed by the Apostle Paul in the following Scripture!
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
I really haven't seen any Scriptural reference to A or B! Therefore, it seems that the OP falls in that category dismissed by the Apostle Paul in the following Scripture!
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Exactly. Any byproduct of God's creation did not exist before He created it :thumbs:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Whether you are correct or not....I do not know, however, such scripture can often be a matter of convenience for us if we do not wish to think on such things. I for one, do not feel thinking on "things" to seek understanding in necessarily dishonoring to God, unless of course the motive is such. If ones point and goal is to seek a deeper and richer understanding of God (Christ) then I believe the role of the HS will provide insight and illumination. DNA is never mentioned in scripture, yet our scientific understanding of it gives such a wonderful picture of design or our creator.
humblethinker
Active Member
The author of this article stated that the above understanding was Augustine's and Boethius' and Calvin's et al views. I include a couple of sentences prior to the quote above:
WD, how much more do you follow in the philosophical beliefs of Augustine?
Are you modifying your beliefe that 'time' is not a created thing but now a byproduct of creation? I don't see 'passage' or 'sequence' or 'action' as a byproduct of the creation but a byproduct of the exististence of the Trinity before creation.
In addition to 'spiking the ball' after your percieved 'score', I would appreciate you presenting scripture to support your claims. Please make your case with scripture so that I can consider such, unless you have already made your case... which, if so, does not seem to warrant you holding such a strong opinion as you do.
Honestly, I don't know what he believed concerning time.
I see this as a distinction without a difference. With creation came time.
Do all truths need Scripture backing them? Is there one Scripture that proves the Trinity, or is the truth about the Trinity formed from the whole of Scripture. If you are looking for a couple verses, you won't get them. I start with God's self appointed name "I AM". That is a timeless designation. Then there is Jesus stating that "before Abraham was born, I AM". Another designation of one bound by time and One not. I've already addressed the many instance Scripture speaks of things occurring "before" (time phrase) time.
I'm not sure what you are looking for to be honest. Is there Scripture that proves gravity? Proves mathematics?
One passage of Scripture that I believe proves there was no time before God created it was found in the creation account from Genesis 1...
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Since days are a measurement of time, we are given when the very first day occurred. There were no days prior to creation.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Since days are a measurement of time, we are given when the very first day occurred. There were no days prior to creation.
humblethinker
Active Member
So this is one reason to completely rule out, and make impossible the case that passage, action, sequence existed before creation? That seems like a leap. What this passage seems to inform us of is what God did in the act of creating. I have no problem with 'day' and 'night' indicating passage, sequence and action. It does not follow that since God created a world that demonstrates sequence and passage that therefore such demonstrations could not have been the case prior to creation. In fact, to me it could possibly inform the beliefe that sequence and passage and action were in existence prior to creation.
I do appreciate your input. Any others?
We should do two things when understanding time. See what the Scriptures state or imply, and then use our God-given faculty of reason to apply the most logical explanation.
Psa 106:48 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God
Psa 41:13 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
The above verses I posted suggest something which, if you think of God as eternally residing IN TIME become absurd. The phrase "everlasting to everlasting" is nonsense if we take it to mean a continuous series of events such as our present reality. If time is infinite....then we do not exist....because this present moment in time has yet to occur.
1.) If time is infinite/had no beginning the present moment would not have arrived
2.) The present moment has arrived
3.) Therefore time had a beginning
4.) Therefore the phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" is not speaking about infinite succession of events.
5.) Actual infinities do not exist
Remember Leibniz: "Why did God wait so long to create the Universe"
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
"The last time", suggests that there have been prior "times" and there will be a Last "time". vs. 17 however, seems to stand in distinction from the notion of existing In time, but in a more timeless state called "forever". See below:
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Once upon a time, there was a time when there was no time :laugh:
More seriously, what this tells us is that time will cease to exist.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Easily accomplished by a being for whom time is essentially meaningless, and who is in no way constrained by time.
Conclusion: He Created time, Time will end.
With respect to A and B series: Craig's belief is that the A series time is the only real "time" and that B series is pablum. That God existed (prior to creation) timelessly and that he has inhabited time (A series) for the moment and will cause time to cease to exist....wherein we will be with him forever...timelessly.
Psa 106:48 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God
Psa 41:13 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
The above verses I posted suggest something which, if you think of God as eternally residing IN TIME become absurd. The phrase "everlasting to everlasting" is nonsense if we take it to mean a continuous series of events such as our present reality. If time is infinite....then we do not exist....because this present moment in time has yet to occur.
1.) If time is infinite/had no beginning the present moment would not have arrived
2.) The present moment has arrived
3.) Therefore time had a beginning
4.) Therefore the phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" is not speaking about infinite succession of events.
5.) Actual infinities do not exist
Remember Leibniz: "Why did God wait so long to create the Universe"
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
"The last time", suggests that there have been prior "times" and there will be a Last "time". vs. 17 however, seems to stand in distinction from the notion of existing In time, but in a more timeless state called "forever". See below:
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Once upon a time, there was a time when there was no time :laugh:
More seriously, what this tells us is that time will cease to exist.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Easily accomplished by a being for whom time is essentially meaningless, and who is in no way constrained by time.
Conclusion: He Created time, Time will end.
With respect to A and B series: Craig's belief is that the A series time is the only real "time" and that B series is pablum. That God existed (prior to creation) timelessly and that he has inhabited time (A series) for the moment and will cause time to cease to exist....wherein we will be with him forever...timelessly.
humblethinker
Active Member
Augustine's beliefs are intreaguing. I don't mean to assume that you don't know much about his other beliefs but, if that is correct, I think it would be very helpful to know more about his beliefs since you strongly debate Calvinists quite a bit.
:thumbs::wavey::applause:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I [am] the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD.
Two distinct words: two distinct meanings: two distinct goals. If thinking on such things using Scripture and God-given reason (we are created in his image) and he is "renewing our minds" helps us to possibly understand God better, then they are a good thing!! It is not simply not dishonoring Him, it is HONORING HIM! :jesus:
humblethinker
Active Member
HS, :laugh: this is a good one... I thought you would do better than this! I will have to think long and hard about anything you say from now on (j/k)... I think you have taken this verse out of context. I can see how it was tempting! Haha, you may have claimed Leibniz but you don't get John!!! ;-)
I don't think further discussion is needed about this verse. If you still feel the verse supports the claim you are making then we can talk more. I will review your other comments, this one was just too good to pass up!
UMMM...I would not dismiss my post so easily...I understand the application you are applying to it, and it may be valid....but any given passage may have several reasonable applications, they may be saying more than one thing at a time as long as they are not contradictions no? I am making my case based upon a more eclectic understanding.....I did not post that verse first because you were supposed to see the entirety of my argument....I do not think that I abused that verse. read it with the verses in 1 John in mind, actually read the following verse as well: Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
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