Regarding Time...

[quantumfaith]

Thanks. I graduated from physical therapy school with honors, but I still need a college level math class of which I had to study for and pass a placement just to get into in order to complete my transcript and reflect that I am officially done so I can take the National Physical Therapy Exam. My transcript needs to be in the hands of the NPTE board by June 18…Soooo I am attempting to complete a 3-unit online math class in about 3 weeks…sigh! On that note:

No, I cannot conceive a “true” relationship (value) between two beings that is not built on a sequence of something built on 2 parts. What “sequence” is there in instant determination? …without the “reality” of the existence of time? Take the emotion of love on which a relationship might be built. Love is a feeling that comes from within one being toward another being or object. 1 +1 = 2, or 2 is built on the relationship of 1 and 1. If 1 being did not have the “ability” to project that feeling toward another being we still have 1 – being placing (determining) His own feeling of love toward Himself. 1 + 0 = 1, or 1 only has relationship to itself and nothing. A sequence can not be built on 1 and nothing can it? 1 might consider that 1+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0…is a sequence, but it would be a sequence built on 1 and nothing. Love is something, or if it were nothing it has no value. Ain’t that right Quantum??? :laugh:

Do you mean to define it as an arithmetic or geometric sequence?

Math is our friend, btw, if you need any help with your math endeavor, feel free to email me. I am assuming your math requirement is a Pre-Calculus College Algebra level course?

 

[quantumfaith]

I have never seen DNA discussed in reference to Scripture or the Christian Faith?

Sorry, perhaps it was a poor attempt at analogical thought. My point was, there are many wonderful and grand things that we are peeking into, so as to understand, which scripture never addresses. The investigation into, and the attempts to understand the philosophy of time is one of those things. Just for and example, we KNOW time does not pass a constant rate.

 

[humblethinker]

1.)once there was not time,
2.)God does not exist in time, at least prior and post creation.
3.)God will eventually do away with time.

and this is, of course, generally accepted, Molinist or no. I think. These were what I was appealing to "tradition" or "orthodoxy" about.

Great, I'm glad we're to this part of the thread... so, I will look at the scripture you provided and also welcome contributions of others regarding arguements FROM SCRIPTURE regarding the matter.

 

[humblethinker]

Just for and example, we KNOW time does not pass [at] a constant rate.

(I edited your comment... does it reflect what you meant?)
You mean to say relative to an outside observer, correct? Would you say that there never was a time that I personally experienced time passing at a variant rate?

I have had the impression of it for sure... a temporal parallax if you will...

 

[AresMan]

What about love? Would you define it as a 'thing' God created? What about 'relationship'? Is that a 'thing' God created? If so then do they exist outside the creation?

Apples and oranges.

Time is not a metaphysical essence. It has physical properties that can be measured and is tied to the finite physical universe. See GPS systems.

Love is metaphysical and exists outside creation. It is eternal as a property of God's ontology.

 

[humblethinker]

Time is not just a conceptual sequential relationship between events, but is a property of space itself, thus spacetime.

Would you say that it is impossible for their to be a "sequential relationship between events" outside of our universe's time?

If God created all things, there can be nothing that is part of the material universe that exists outside creation.

We honestly think that we experience love and relationship. Would you say that we are not really experiencing those things but that it is just an illusion?

Love is metaphysical and exists outside creation. It is eternal as a property of God's ontology.

Does it exist inside creation as well? Is it truly love that we experience from God interacting with us in this creation or is it just the impression of God's love that we experience?

 

[quantumfaith]

(I edited your comment... does it reflect what you meant?)
You mean to say relative to an outside observer, correct? Would you say that there never was a time that I personally experienced time passing at a variant rate?

I have had the impression of it for sure... a temporal parallax if you will...

Actually rate of measured time passage is known to be affected by two things,

1. velocity time dilation
2. gravitational time dilation

 

[saturneptune]

If time is a measured quantity affected by those two parameters, is it physically possible to go forward or backward in time, maybe in relation to the speed of light?

 

[quantumfaith]

If time is a measured quantity affected by those two parameters, is it physically possible to go forward or backward in time, maybe in relation to the speed of light?

Some say yes, from a purely "mathematical" point of view. Myself, I say no.

 

[saturneptune]

Some say yes, from a purely "mathematical" point of view. Myself, I say no.

That would be interesting, wouldn't it? What if one went back in time and killed Judas, Pilate, and the entire Pharisee leadership on the Thursday before Good Friday? I can see why you are probably right in saying no. Can you imagine if humans could do that? It seems to me that God's will would not allow it.

 

[saturneptune]

I once tried to get through a book about the speed of light and how time progresses at a different rate as one approaches that speed. I got as far as understanding as one approached the speed of light, time slowed down. That would in effect put you into the future if you returned to earth from a trip near the speed of light. I never did understand how one would go to the past.

Time travel, although impossible, has certainly made some interesting concepts and situations in the entertainment world. The Twilight Zone had some really good episodes on the subject. It even gets more fascinating when pondering time travel in relation to a sovereign God.

 

[mandym]

Regarding Time…

IMO, the evidence in the Bible for an A-series view of time is overwhelming. What scripture would be evidence for the B-series?

In this link, William Lane Craig subscribes to an A-series understanding of time with the start of creation. He believes that 'before' creation that only the B-series of time existed. WLC described time as "a relation among events".

Reading John 17 we observe Jesus describing what he and the Father had experienced before the world was, which was glory and love.

John 17
5 ...with the glory which I had with You before the world was
24 ...for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

I subscribe to the A-series of time before and after the act of creation. I don't think time is a created thing but is a result of a relation among events, before and after creation. While this is easier to understand in the created universe, to consider such before the creation is more difficult since we do not have near as much information. However, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that since there is a relation between the Trinity, this is all that is needed to give support to the A-series of time prior to creation. From a scriptural perspective, prior to creation, there was, at least, the triune God in a relationship of love one to another. My thought is that relationship unavoidable entails sequence, which seems to me to be the basis for A-series time and also a good reason to reject the B-series.

As I said above, IMO, the evidence in the Bible for an A-series view of time is overwhelming. What scripture (in proper context of course) would be evidence for the B-series?

Oh my word! People really need to get over themselves. Now they are trying to make up "intellectual" things to think about. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

 

[percho]

Oh my word! People really need to get over themselves. Now they are trying to make up "intellectual" things to think about. This is the dumbest think I have ever heard.

You mean, eight pages dumb?

 

[OldRegular]

Sorry, perhaps it was a poor attempt at analogical thought. My point was, there are many wonderful and grand things that we are peeking into, so as to understand, which scripture never addresses. The investigation into, and the attempts to understand the philosophy of time is one of those things. Just for and example, we KNOW time does not pass a constant rate.

What do you mean "we KNOW time does not pass a constant rate"?

S/N has mentioned that if one could approach the speed of light time would slow down [called time dilation]. However, no one has ever approached the speed of light.

Physicist, Dr Russell Humphreys, has written a book Starlight and Time in which he attempts to account for the transfer of light from distant stars in days rather than light years during creation. In doing so he is using current theories. He is not trying to probe the mind of God and eternity which seems to be the purpose of the OP!

Read the following after my initial post!

Actually rate of measured time passage is known to be affected by two things,

1. velocity time dilation
2. gravitational time dilation

Have there been any observations of real time dilation or is this still theory?

 

[OldRegular]

Oh my word! People really need to get over themselves. Now they are trying to make up "intellectual" things to think about. This is the dumbest think I have ever heard.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

 

[saturneptune]

Everyone needs to remember that Old Regular was operating the teleprompter when the very first words were spoken. Let there be light.

 

[OldRegular]

Everyone needs to remember that Old Regular was operating the teleprompter when the very first words were spoken. Let there be light.

Didn't know you were there S/N. Sorry I missed you.

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh my word! People really need to get over themselves. Now they are trying to make up "intellectual" things to think about. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Mandy, I think you misinterpret some. HT, is not going out of his way to appear intellectual. Some christian thinkers are motivated to "think" on difficult things to seek answers about this extraordinary creation of God. If one seeks such solely for the pursuit of fanciful intellect, somewhat the charge of Paul to the greeks, then yes it is most certainly in vain. If one seeks, with some degree of humility to understand creation and the God who made this, in order to glorify God, then it is not "dumb". IMO, one such thinker, William Lane Craig does just this in his ministry as an apologist.

 

[quantumfaith]

What do you mean "we KNOW time does not pass a constant rate"?

S/N has mentioned that if one could approach the speed of light time would slow down [called time dilation]. However, no one has ever approached the speed of light.

Physicist, Dr Russell Humphreys, has written a book Starlight and Time in which he attempts to account for the transfer of light from distant stars in days rather than light years during creation. In doing so he is using current theories. He is not trying to probe the mind of God and eternity which seems to be the purpose of the OP!

Read the following after my initial post!



Have there been any observations of real time dilation or is this still theory?

It has been repeatedly observed in fact, you mentioned GPS (I think) in one of your earlier posts, for GPS to function in a "correct" manner, it must be considered in the engineering of the system. Lorentz transformations (and possibly even more sophisticated mathematics) are necessary in time critical applications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

 

[Cypress]

Would you say that it is impossible for their to be a "sequential relationship between events" outside of our universe's time?


We honestly think that we experience love and relationship. Would you say that we are not really experiencing those things but that it is just an illusion?


Does it exist inside creation as well? Is it truly love that we experience from God interacting with us in this creation or is it just the impression of God's love that we experience?

Great thread so far. I am interested to see the answer to these questions. Been waiting for it to get to this point. Btw, lots of observations have been made about time, but nobody really "knows" what it is do they? As you know, I think time was more closely described by Newton than he gets credit for today.