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Regenerated/saved "through faith"
- Thread starter The Biblicist
- Start date
Were you? Let's see about that. In relation to John 14:15, I said:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1842947&postcount=161
I simply gave you the context of the passage. Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 14.Originally Posted by DHK
That is what He was telling them. It was the 12 that would obey him. It was the 12 that loved him. You do not understand this passage do you??
And then you said:
1. You show your ignorance of the English language in that you don't know what an oxymoron is. I never used one.
2. Your accusation should have been edited out. There is no blasphemy there, only an ungodly wicked assertion by a depraved heart who has a disagreement with another poster. Now that is the truth Moriah. We all have depraved hearts, but you don't like to admit that.
If you apologize that will be a sign of repentance. If you don't then please don't post that you believe in repentance, for you don't.
Jesus says if anyone loves me…
YOU said Jesus was speaking ONLY to the APOSTLES AND ABOUT THE APOSTLES.
YOU said the Apostles were already saved, obeyed, and loved Jesus.
Jesus says that if anyone loves him he will obey and the Father and Jesus will make their home with them.
However, YOU say they were already saved and obeying.
Therefore, YOU make Jesus as saying two oxymoron statements.
ox•y•mo•ron/ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/
Noun: A figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true).
That is another lie from you, for I know what an oxymoron is. Stop saying things about people that you just make up.
More lies and slander from you. Do you know what a hypocrite is?
I have the Father and Jesus living inside me. My heart is not depraved.
You do not appear to be all the way sound, to me.
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That is right. They were gathered together in an upper room. Judas had left them in chapter 13 (So technically there were only 11 disciples left). From chapter 13 to the end of 16 Jesus is there alone speaking with his disciples and to no one else.
Correct, are you suggesting that his disciples are not saved?
He makes the same promise to us today. The promise is not a promise to an unbeliever. He gave this promise to his disciples while on earth because he was soon leaving them:
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
This is a comforting promise to believers, not unbelievers. It is not about salvation.
Jesus says nothing about salvation. They were already saved.
Jesus did not use any figure of speech called an oxymoron. And you have not provided one. He did not speak of salvation. He was not speaking to the unsaved. He was speaking lovingly to those that loved him, reassuring them of their home in heaven and the Comforter to come, because, as He said, He would soon be leaving them.
And where did Jesus use this type of figure of speech?
"pretty ugly," "controlled chaos," "forward retreat," "open secret," "sweet sorrow," etc. The Lord Jesus Christ used nothing that comes remotely close to any oxymoron, and neither did I. That in itself is a false accusation.
It is evident from the above that you don't.
All men have a depraved heart. You may disagree with me, but you may not call it blasphemy as you previously did. Now when I point it out for you, you resort to the accusations of "more lies and slander." That is childish on your part and shows that you have an unrepentant heart. It is a sign that you do not believe in the repentance that you preach. That is what is hypocritical.
Again, another sign of a depraved heart; an unrepentant heart. A heart exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit would not respond in this way.
Now you are trying to change what you said. You said Jesus was speaking ONLY to the Apostles, but now you say it is a promise to us today. Now do you understand? YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT UNLESS YOU OBEY JESUS’ TEACHINGS.
It is about salvation! In addition, the promise is to ANYONE, just like JESUS SAID.
Jesus also says WHOEVER. “Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” JOHN 14:21.
They did not yet have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will be with them forever. Jesus says, “If you love me, you will obey what I command, John 14:15. That is what Jesus said to his disciples!
You explain that Jesus is saying an oxymoron. You have Jesus saying if you who love me do not hate me, AND I will save the saved. You are the one who said it was only about the Apostles that loved and obeyed him. There are other words that equally describe what you wrongly imply that Jesus said, they are synonyms for oxymoron. Since you do not like the word oxymoron, here, have your pick.
Main Entry: oxymoron Synonyms:
Gordian knot, absurdity, ambiguity, ambivalence, antinomy, asymmetry, crux, dilemma, disproportion, disproportionateness, enigma, equivocality, equivocation, heresy, heterodoxy, heterogeneity, hopelessness, impossibility, impossible, impossibleness, incoherence, incommensurability, incompatibility, inconceivability, incongruity, inconsistency, inconsonance, irony, irreconcilability, knot, knotty point, no chance, node, nodus, nonconformability, nonconformity, nonplus, paradox, perplexity, pons asinorum, poser, puzzle, quandary, self-contradiction, teaser, the impossible, unconformability, unconformity, unimaginability, unorthodoxy, unthinkability, vexed question, what cannot be, what cannot happen
You talk all sorts of nonsense.
You seriously sound as if you lost it, in my humble opinion.
Moriah do you believe Jesus? Here is how Jesus described those he was addressing in John 13-17 in the upper room:
Jn. 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Jn. 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Jn. 17: 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jesus claims he is addressing believers, his own, those that belong to the Father, those who already love him - do you believe Jesus is lying also?
Furthermore, Jesus applies this to FUTURE BELIEVERS as well:
John 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So DHK told you the truth! This context is for believers only, those being directly addressed in the upper room and those future believers or for believers today.
Are you going to call Christ a liar?
That scripture is about those who believe in God and love him.
They believed in God before Jesus came, BUT NOW THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH JESUS. God gave those who already believed in Him to Jesus. When they heard Jesus speak the word of God, they knew Jesus was from God.
You need to stop being passive aggressive by asking me such insulting and dumb things as “do you believe Jesus is lying also?” YOU do not even understand what Jesus is saying. Jesus reveals himself to those who obey him. I believe Jesus and not you; since you do not understand what Jesus is speaking about, I do not think Jesus has revealed himself to you. Start obeying Jesus then you will see. You even preach OSAS, which exalts sinning to the level of not sinning. Stop going against the Word of God.
You are the liar. Jesus says if ANYONE, and WHOEVER has his teachings and obeys them.
In John 14:20 Jesus says, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,”
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They had been with Jesus three and a half years already and Jesus already said this about them:
Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Jesus said this about them LONG BEFORE this upper room discourse at the END of three and a half years with them!
Why would Jesus claim their names were already written in heaven if they were still UNBELIEVERS in him as you claim above????? Can UNBELIEVERS rejoice that they names are witten down in heaven?
Are you saying they remained as UNBELIEVERS in Christ for three and a half years when Jesus told Peter long before this "blessed art thou Simon bar Jona for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee but my Father in heaven"?
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
You are saying that the same disciples that John said already beleived on him at the beginning of his ministry are UNBELIEVERS in him in John 13-17 where he addressees the very same "disicples"??????
There are scores of scriptures where many "beleived on him" through his preaching to the multitudes and through the preaching by his disciples and you are saying that while many others are said to have believed on him that his own disciples were still UNBELIEVERS and addressed as UNBELIEVERS in John 13-17?
You are the unbeliever here! You are the one contradicting and denying Christ's own words that those he is addressing in John 13-17 are BELIEVERS in him.
Your conscience is so seared by your false doctrines that you could not see a red barn if it were pressed up against your nose!
You are not sound, you are delusional. Where have I said they were unbelievers? Show now or repent.
You challenged DHK's assertion they were already "saved" and already obeying him,and already loving him when you said:
YOU said the Apostles were already saved, obeyed, and loved Jesus.
Jesus says that if anyone loves him he will obey and the Father and Jesus will make their home with them.
However, YOU say they were already saved and obeying. - Moriah post #103
Why would you emphasize "YOU say" if that was not what Jesus also said of them?
Jesus claimed they were saved already because he claimed their names were already written in heaven and that he was coming back for them.
Jesus claimed they were already obeying him because he claimed they were "his disciples" and a disciple by definition is one who FOLLOWS the master, OBEYS the Master, CONFORMS to the teaching and life of the MASTER.
Jesus claimed they were already loving him because one who keeps his commandments is one showing love and is a friend to Christ and Christ called them his friends:
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Moriah to claim they are not "saved" is to claim they are not true believers in him because you cannot be saved apart from believing in him. You deny they were "saved"!
Moriah to claim they do not love and obey him is to claim they are not true disciples of Him because by definition a "disciple" is one who BELIEVES and then obeys his Master and FOLLOWS His Master.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
The truth is that regardless if one at this time or that time has had their names written down, God can blot them out if He so chooses, just as He divorced the disobedient children of Israel.
Nothing I said says they were NOT believers.
And if they love him they would get his teachings and obey them, then the Father and Jesus will make their home with them. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It is NOT just for the Apostles, but for ANYONE and WHOEVER.
I did not claim any such thing. Jesus spoke to the Apostle about anyone and whoever. You miss the point completely. DHK said that Jesus was speaking only to the Apostles AND only about the Apostles, only later did DHK concede that it was for us today.
Don't backtrack now (or lie). That is not what you claimed. You said: "anyone means anyone." And that includes unbelievers. Even if the unbeliever would love and obey Jesus, Jesus would accept him. That was your teaching from this passage. The problem is that Jesus was talking to believers and not unbelievers as you adamantly asserted. Now you are changing your tune. Who is the hypocrite now?
They were told to wait at Jerusalem.
They were told that He would send them the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.
They were told that He would depart from them.
--These were all promises specific to the Apostles and not applicable to us today. Moriah, did you go to Jerusalem in order to receive the Holy Spirit? Have you received it yet?
I said he was speaking only to the apostles. There were many things that were applicable only to the apostles as I just pointed out. But there were some things that we can apply to us as well. That is true of any Scripture. I already said that. You do not read carefully. Have you gone to Jerusalem yet? Did you get the Holy Spirit there. That is where the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--on the Day of Pentecost.
Glad you asked, YOU are still the hypocrite.
You do not even make sense, you say, “Even if the unbeliever would love and obey Jesus, Jesus would accept him.” That does not make sense, for if an unbeliever started to love and obey Jesus, then he would no longer be an unbeliever.
You said it was only about the Apostles, then you say it is a promise for us today, then you use this unreasonable question to say it is not for us today.
If YOU say, you know Jesus, and that you love him, but do not do what he says, THEN YOU ARE A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU.
Jesus says IF ANYONE and WHOEVER.
You cannot stop going against the Word of God.
See your hypocrisy here. First you said: "Nothing I said says they were NOT believers."
I trust everyone will take note of that.
Now you say that even if the unbeliever would love and obey Jesus...
So you were talking about the unbeliever! That is hypocrisy, a lie! Deception!
Then, you won't admit it but the unbeliever will not love Jesus; will not obey Jesus. That is when you refused to admit that Jesus was speaking only to the twelve. He was not speaking to unbelievers. He was speaking to believers only; only to the disciples. The conversation had nothing to do with unbelievers, did it?
The conversation was only between the Apostles and Jesus. There were no unbelievers present and has nothing to do with unbelievers. It never did. As I pointed out he was giving promises to the Apostles some of which could never be applied to us. Did you go and wait at Jerusalem for the coming of the Holy Spirit? Yes or No? Please answer.
I never said it was for today. The historical context puts it in the upper room--Jesus alone with his disciples.
I said there were some applications that we can apply to us today. We can make applications from any Scripture.
Perhaps you should study God's word, stop being a hypocrite, repent of your sin of calling others blasphemous. You teach repentance, but don't believe in practicing it. That is hypocrisy. Are you sure you believe the words of Jesus?
When you denied they were "saved" you denied they were true believers - period - you are denying that in your response to DHK.
Jn. 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
He explicitly told those whom he was addressing that they were such already! He called them his "friends" and defined a friend as one who keeps his commandments and loves him. I quoted his words directly addressed to them - read it!
You are perverting him. His point was the discourse was directed to disciples and the proof is that only disciples were in the room when this discoruse was given. He never at any time restricted the meaning or the term disciple to only those alive during his ministry or only present in the room.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
He is merely defining what a man will do IF that man loves him. Obedience is the consequential effects of love for him. He is not prescribing what a man must do in order to obtain love for him or to be saved but defining the consequential proof that a man is saved and does love him!
You just as well argue that he is prescribing commandment keeping as a means to obtain love for him!!!! The truth is that commandment keeping is the consequence or proof of love not the means to attain love.
Love is a fruit of the Spirit's presence, not the means to attain the Spirit (Gal. 5:22). Love is demonstrated by obedience not obtained by obedience. The promise to come and abide with such a man is not the means of salvation but one of the many consequences or evidences of salvation.
Where does Love in the heart of man come from - Romans 5:6-7 - From the indwelling Holy Spirit
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I said nothing I said says the Apostles were unbelievers.
You are too twisted and think no one else will catch it.
Jesus was speaking about IF ANYONE and WHOEVER.
Jesus was even speaking about those who will believe in him! John 17:20.
Jesus was speaking to the disciples, and explaining that IF ANYONE AND WHOEVER loves him will obey. For you to say what you said about it, that Jesus was only confirming that they would get the Holy Spirit, is for you to deny that Jesus was EXPLAINING SOMETHING POWERFUL. You brush off what Jesus says by saying the disciples love and obey Jesus and Jesus was just confirming that they would receive the Spirit.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4.
Do you not think the Apostles need to understand that truth? Do you not think that YOU need to understand that truth?
You are a liar. Look at post # 104, this is what you said to me about John 14:23 “He makes the same promise to us today. The promise is not a promise to an unbeliever. He gave this promise to his disciples while on earth because he was soon leaving them:”
First you said it was about ONLY the Apostles, then you finally concede that it is for all.
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He did address this to eleven Apostles - that is a fact - No one else was in the room.
The apostles are believers, they are disciples and therefore Christ is addressing believers and disciples and directly describes them as such.
The promise is not to unbelievers as no unbeliever loves Christ as even you admitted that one cannot be an unbeliever and love Christ.
Love does not originate from men but from God "not that we loved God but God first loved us" "The fruit of the Spirit is love" and "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."
Obedience is the PROOF of love not how you obtain love. The promise is the CONSEQUENCE of love not how you obtain love. Love is proof that you are already a believer, already a disciple, already saved, and obedience and the promise are resultant consequences of that condition.
I do not deny they were saved, nor do I say that they were. Jesus is the one who is explaining to them that if they love him they will get his teachings and obey them, and then the Father and Jesus will love them and make their home with them. What you are suggesting is that Jesus had no reason to say such a thing to them!
Jesus says IF ANYONE, and WHOEVER. That message is for you too. If YOU say you know Jesus, but you do not do what he commands, YOU are a liar, and the truth is not in you. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That scripture goes for ANYONE and EVERYONE.
YOU SEE! You see the twisted stuff you say. You say Jesus is not saying what a man must do in order to obtain love for him or to be saved but defining the consequential proof that a man is saved and does love him.
Jesus SAYS IF anyone loves him, they will obey what he commands. AND he will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever---the Spirit of truth.
What Jesus says is telling us how to obtain love, and how to show proof. Now all can see how you try to twist what is said and even deny what is said.
IF YOU OBEY JESUS’ COMMANDS, YOU WILL REMAIN IN MY LOVE. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU BIBLICIST? HOW ARE THE DISCIPLES, AND YOU, OR ANYONE WHO IS IN JESUS’ LOVE GOING TO REMAIN THERE? BY OBEYING JESUS!
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Simple straightforward truth of Scripture. Accept that truth and be enlightened, or reject that truth and remain in darkness.