Regenerated/saved "through faith"

[Moriah]

He did address this to eleven Apostles - that is a fact - No one else was in the room.

The apostles are believers, they are disciples and therefore Christ is addressing believers and disciples and directly describes them as such.

The promise is not to unbelievers as no unbeliever loves Christ as even you admitted that one cannot be an unbeliever and love Christ.

Love does not originate from men but from God "not that we loved God but God first loved us" "The fruit of the Spirit is love" and "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Obedience is the PROOF of love not how you obtain love. The promise is the CONSEQUENCE of love not how you obtain love. Love is proof that you are already a believer, already a disciple, already saved, and obedience and the promise are resultant consequences of that condition.

You say things I do not say. You twist things I say. You twist the scriptures! You speak a lot of stuff, trying to camouflage your false doctrines.
If an unbeliever hears the Word of God and puts them to practice, they will see if it is God’s word or man’s words. That is what the Bible says.

If an unbeliever does what Jesus says to do, they will not remain an unbeliever!
Are you saying all believers were always believers? LOL

 

[DHK]

I said nothing I said says the Apostles were unbelievers.

Moriah don't lie. You stated over and over again that "anyone means anyone," and that included unbelievers. And "anyone" can go back and see what you posted.

Jesus was speaking about IF ANYONE and WHOEVER.

Jesus was even speaking about those who will believe in him! John 17:20.

There you go again. "Anyone" includes unbelievers (in your mind) doesn't it. So you are a person full of contradictions.
John 17:20 was never referred to in this discussion.

Jesus was speaking to the disciples, and explaining that IF ANYONE AND WHOEVER loves him will obey.

Break it down: "Any one of you." He was speaking to his disciples. They were the only ones in the room. He was not speaking to anyone outside of those four walls.

For you to say what you said about it, that Jesus was only confirming that they would get the Holy Spirit, is for you to deny that Jesus was EXPLAINING SOMETHING POWERFUL. You brush off what Jesus says by saying the disciples love and obey Jesus and Jesus was just confirming that they would receive the Spirit.

You show your ignorance by not studying the historical context of the passage and finding out who Jesus was speaking to. Remember, I never said that there are no applications that can be drawn.
You never answered my question: Have you been to Jerusalem to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit like Jesus commanded them to do? Yes or no?

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4.
Do you not think the Apostles need to understand that truth? Do you not think that YOU need to understand that truth?

Then because you have disobeyed his command to wait for the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem you have lied and the truth is not in you, by your own admission.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Have you obeyed Jesus yet? Have you been to Jerusalem and received the Holy Spirit as he promised. If not, who is not obeying the words of Jesus?

You are a liar. Look at post # 104, this is what you said to me about John 14:23 “He makes the same promise to us today. The promise is not a promise to an unbeliever. He gave this promise to his disciples while on earth because he was soon leaving them:”

You look at this verse in its context!

John 14:22-23
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
--His answer was specifically given to Judas, not Judas Iscariot however.
There is an application to us today, but the verse was not spoken to us.

First you said it was about ONLY the Apostles, then you finally concede that it is for all.

It was spoken only to the Apostles!
There are some applications that we can draw from it, but not for the unsaved.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah: IF YOU OBEY JESUS’ COMMANDS, YOU WILL REMAIN IN MY LOVE. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU BIBLICIST? HOW ARE THE DISCIPLES, AND YOU, OR ANYONE WHO IS IN JESUS’ LOVE GOING TO REMAIN THERE? BY OBEYING JESUS!
John 15:10 f you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

HP: Simple straightforward truth of Scripture. Accept that truth and be enlightened, or reject that truth and remain in darkness.

Amen, Brother, Amen.

 

[DHK]

HP: Simple straightforward truth of Scripture. Accept that truth and be enlightened, or reject that truth and remain in darkness.

What does this have to do with the unsaved?
That is what this discussion is all about.
Jesus was not speaking to unsaved people; he was speaking to his disciples.
All Christians are taught to keep his commandments. That is a given.

 

[Moriah]

What does this have to do with the unsaved?
That is what this discussion is all about.
Jesus was not speaking to unsaved people; he was speaking to his disciples.
All Christians are taught to keep his commandments. That is a given.

It has to do with anyone and whoever. It has to do with the saved, staying saved, and the unsaved.

 

[DHK]

It has to do with anyone and whoever. It has to do with the saved, staying saved, and the unsaved.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You mean a verse like this?
It has nothing to do with the unsaved. It was written to the saved; the apostles in particular. Now if you say that it has anything to do with the unsaved, the only conclusion one can draw is that YOU BELIEVE, that the apostles were unsaved. Correct?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

HP: It is foolishness to try and limited the object of this verse to 'saved' alone. There is not the slightest hint of wisdom in such limitations being foisted upon such a verse. This is admonition to the unsaved, the saved, or the deceived. This verse is simply Christ telling us in yet another manner how to examine ourselves to see "IF" we are of the faith.

No man, can honestly say they love God while in the commission of sin or while living with unconfessed and unforsaken sin. Either you will love the one and forsake the other, but you cannot serve God and sin at the same time. Sin is a reproach. Sin is acting in direct antipodes with love towards God and man. When we sin, it is an indication that our heart towards God is NOT right, and needs to repent and change. If one can sin, day after day , week after week, year after year, obviously in the same old ways, one could not make me believe one loves God any more than one sinning against their spouse day after day could convince a spouse that such a one loved them.

Does your heart condemn you for your sin? If so, so much more does the Lord.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
If your heart does not condemn you of your sins, I would wonder if the Holy Spirit has in reality withdrawn himself from such a one. If that were the case in my life, I would be on my knees seeking God to cause my sin to be exceedingly sinful to me so as to bring my hardened heart back to a place of sincere repentance and love towards God.

 

[Moriah]

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You mean a verse like this?
It has nothing to do with the unsaved.

If an unsaved person got Jesus’ teachings and obeyed them, he would be saved. Do you deny that?

It was written to the saved; the apostles in particular.

No, it was not just written to the apostles in particular. Jesus also says he who does not love me will not obey my teaching. Is that only to the apostles too, are to the unsaved also? It is just one scripture after the one Jesus says to obey.

Now if you say that it has anything to do with the unsaved, the only conclusion one can draw is that YOU BELIEVE, that the apostles were unsaved. Correct?

You logic is illogical.

 

[DHK]

If an unsaved person got Jesus’ teachings and obeyed them, he would be saved. Do you deny that?

Yes. An unsaved person cannot love God.
An unsaved person cannot obey God.
An unsaved person will not therefore obey the teachings of God.
Your question is therefore moot.

No, it was not just written to the apostles in particular. Jesus also says he who does not love me will not obey my teaching. Is that only to the apostles too, are to the unsaved also? It is just one scripture after the one Jesus says to obey.

Were you also in the upper room?
Did you also go to Jerusalem?
Were you alive in the first century?

You logic is illogical.

And you are telling me?????????????????

 

[DHK]

HP: It is foolishness to try and limited the object of this verse to 'saved' alone. There is not the slightest hint of wisdom in such limitations being foisted upon such a verse. This is admonition to the unsaved, the saved, or the deceived. This verse is simply Christ telling us in yet another manner how to examine ourselves to see "IF" we are of the faith.

Check the historical context.
In chapter 13 Jesus washes their feet and Judas Iscariot leaves the room. A discussion begins in that room and continues on until the end of chapter 16. Chapter 17 is the high priestly prayer of Jesus. Then they depart.

Who in the upper room is unsaved? What unsaved people is Jesus addressing? He is talking with his disciples. Do you believe they were all unsaved individuals. Is that who he chose to carry on his ministry?

 

[Moriah]

Yes. An unsaved person cannot love God.
An unsaved person cannot obey God.
An unsaved person will not therefore obey the teachings of God.
Your question is therefore moot.

Were you also in the upper room?
Did you also go to Jerusalem?
Were you alive in the first century?

And you are telling me?????????????????

You are deceived, and you seek to deceive others.

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus says if ANYONE CHOOSES to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...

An unsaved person can hear the message that saves, do what it says and be saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

If an unsaved person got Jesus’ teachings and obeyed them, he would be saved. Do you deny that?

YES! For it is by faith alone, grace alone we are saved, NO works involved/no odenience required, as siiners cannot keep the law enough anyways!

No, it was not just written to the apostles in particular. Jesus also says he who does not love me will not obey my teaching. Is that only to the apostles too, are to the unsaved also? It is just one scripture after the one Jesus says to obey.

we are asked to Obey God AFTER getting saved, and once saved, we will have our new natures and the Holy Spirit desiring within us to please and serve God, NONE which we desired before getting saved!

You logic is illogical.

Would say that your stated beliefs are really fitting into the same class!

 

[Moriah]

Would say that your stated beliefs are really fitting into the same class!

You cannot even answer simply questions of your faith.

Answer those questions I gave you.

You have the chance to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[DHK]

You are deceived, and you seek to deceive others.

Is this your Christianity on display?

John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus says if ANYONE CHOOSES to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...

An unsaved person can hear the message that saves, do what it says and be saved.

What kind of version do you use. That is not what that verse says at all.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
--There is no choosing mentioned there. He was also speaking in the Temple. The Jews were God's people. At that time they still had the choice to accept him as their Messiah or reject him. But they were not interested in doing the will of God.

 

[Moriah]

Is this your Christianity on display?

What kind of version do you use. That is not what that verse says at all.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
--There is no choosing mentioned there. He was also speaking in the Temple. The Jews were God's people. At that time they still had the choice to accept him as their Messiah or reject him. But they were not interested in doing the will of God.

You can look up any translation, it means the same.

 

[Yeshua1]

You cannot even answer simply questions of your faith.

Answer those questions I gave you.

You have the chance to correct me if I am wrong.

At least my answers were from the Bible!

 

[Moriah]

At least my answers were from the Bible!

Where are they?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where are they?

Answers to your questions in the post!

 

[Moriah]

Answers to your questions in the post!

Put the answers I asked you on top, and underneath give your biblical answer.

 

[Moriah]

I want DHK, or anyone, to explain to me how what Jesus says in John 14:23 does not go for anyone. Why would the Apostles only get the Holy Spirit if they get Jesus’ teachings and obey them, and not anyone else? Why do you think that you can receive the Holy Spirit for NOT obeying Jesus, when Jesus says that is how ANYONE will receive the Holy Spirit?

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.