Regeneration and sanctification

[psalms109:31]

I hope this won't derail the thread - I don't mean it to - but where in the bible are we told that Saul "became" Paul? He certainly didn't have a name-change on his conversion, because he still is referred to as "Saul" in Acts 13, some time after the Damascus Road event. Indeed, verse 9 of that chapter includes the words: "Then Saul, (who is also called Paul)". It doesn't say: "Then Paul (who used to be called Saul)".

We do have examples in the bible of people whose names were changed. Abram became Abraham, and Serai became Sarah, for instance.

But as far as I know, there is nothing to suggest that Saul's name was changed to Paul. Perhaps having the two names is something to do with him having dual nationality - he was a Roman as well as a Jew. "Saul" is a Jewish name, and "Paul" a Roman one.

After Damascus Paul never went by Saul again that is why i said the way i said it, but what you said was a great insight thank you.

 

[savedbymercy]

So all those regenerated by Christ's death, burial and resurrection, shall receive a New Birth. The Birth proceeds from the generation. There must have been a generation or regeneration for there to be a birth. Thats called being born of incorruptible seed. 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[allinall]

"Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

Most would call this sancification. And granted, there is a distinction that needs to be made between the results of the Spirit baptism, and the results of a filling, but does that exclude this from being regeneration? Is it regeneration? Why or why not?

Dave

 

[DHK]

"Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

Most would call this sancification. And granted, there is a distinction that needs to be made between the results of the Spirit baptism, and the results of a filling, but does that exclude this from being regeneration? Is it regeneration? Why or why not?

Dave

It is the new birth, just as it says it is, and demonstrates very clearly that the new birth cannot happen until the age of understanding has been reached. It also demonstrates that the new birth cannot happen until the gospel has been understood and accepted by faith, as also does John 1:12,13.

 

[DHK]

Yeah DHK, about as absurd as murderers, adulterers, idolators, prostitutes, liars, and thieves being in the direct lineage of Christ.

David was a murderer and an adulterer, if you recall properly.
You also fall into the same category, if you understand your Bible correctly.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

All, or perhaps most, of these fell into these categories. According to Jesus interpretation of the Law on the Sermon on the Mount they all did. And so would you.

 

[percho]

I'm going back to the OP. I believe the word of God teaches that sanctification,
set apart or called according to his purpose is receiving the Holy Spirit of promise. That promise being the redemption of the purchased possession, regeneration.

The following is the process.

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Doesn't that underlined have to take place before we are saved, that is born again? That is to inherit salvation? Is that salvation called life in Col.3:3 not presently in Christ yet in the future when He shall appear be in us? Does not the same principle apply to spiritual birth that applies to physical birth? Is the fruit of generation the day of conception or the day of birth? Why do most think in the spiritual realm conception and birth take place at the same moment? Is the physical anything but a shadow of the spiritual? Which is the earnest,
(begotten) until the redemption of (birth regeneration)

Matt. 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Question. Did Jesus have this begetting Spirit of God the Father in him until the moment he died?
Another question. Did it belong to him of to the Father?
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Question. I will ask again did the Holy Spirit belong to Jesus the Son or the Father?
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Question. Someone that has been raised from the dead and is presently on the right hand of God receives the Holy Spirit from one called the Father and sheds it forth to others. Who?
Titus 3:5.6 By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Question. Who has gone through regeneration and been renewed with the Holy Spirit and has had that shed forth on others in his name?

Big question. When the Holy Spirit is shed on one is he then conceived/begotten as a son of God an heir waiting on his birth/regeneration, the adoption to wit, to inherit in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump?

And are the children of God being the children of the resurrection.

Ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,
Question. Does this not take place at the same time as the last trump and being the children of the resurrection?

I understand for most of you it would be hard to agree with this. But is this not the meaning of born again? And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[allinall]

It is the new birth, just as it says it is, and demonstrates very clearly that the new birth cannot happen until the age of understanding has been reached. It also demonstrates that the new birth cannot happen until the gospel has been understood and accepted by faith, as also does John 1:12,13.

I thought that Galatians 3:2 was the new birth. Then 3:3 was after birth, or growth.

Dave

 

[allinall]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, ...

DEATH...in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, ...

LIFE...made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Is this death to life here speaking of being born again? If so, do we need to be raised up with Christ to have that life? How are we raised up with Christ? ...

Can a person be born again before this happens...

Colossians 2:11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

or this...

Romans 3:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 1For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-------------------

Consider...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Why was this baptism still future in Matthew 3:10-12? (Also see John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5, Mark 1:7-8: Luke 3:16).

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Dave

 

[percho]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, ...

DEATH...in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, ...

LIFE...made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Is this death to life here speaking of being born again? If so, do we need to be raised up with Christ to have that life? How are we raised up with Christ? ...

Response from percho*********************
No to the first question. WE have been translated from the power of darkness into the light of the kingdom of God by being baptized into Christ. WE are now in Christ begotten awaiting birth. See my last post. We still need to be baptized with the baptism Christ was baptized with see Matt. 20:22,23
which is to follow him in the regeneration. This is born again and that is how we are raised up with Christ. Our life (eternal) is hid with Christ in God and when Christ our like shall appear we shall appear with him in glory.

Can a person be born again before this happens...

Colossians 2:11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

or this...

Romans 3:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 1For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-------------------

Consider...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Why was this baptism still future in Matthew 3:10-12? (Also see John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5, Mark 1:7-8: Luke 3:16).

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Dave

I believe most of this is answered in my previous post. I responded in the middle of your post. Sorry.

 

[DHK]

I thought that Galatians 3:2 was the new birth. Then 3:3 was after birth, or growth.

Dave

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3)

What does this passage have to do with the new birth? Nothing that I can see. Paul's letter to the Galatians was to rebuke them for being led astray by the legalistic Judaizers. They had begun "in the Spirit," and now had been influenced by those that were teaching that keeping the law and circumcision were necessary for salvation. This is the context, both of the book, and of these verses. It doesn't say anything about the new birth.

The new birth is explained quite well by Jesus in John 3:1-10. More information is given about it in 1Pet.1:23 and in John 1:12,13. These verses refer directly to the new birth. Titus 3:5 refers specifically to regeneration. Most of the other verses that others have been using they have been spiritualizing or allegorizing. I have seen some strange posts on the board lately, but have refrained from commenting.

 

[allinall]

Hi DHK

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3)

What does this passage have to do with the new birth? Nothing that I can see.

Receiving the Spirit (NT) is how a person is placed "in Christ" and thus born again. Paul's remark "having begun in the Spirit" from in vs. 3 points back to vs. 2. So, vs. 3 cannot be speaking of "beginning in the Spirit" yet again.

The new birth is explained quite well by Jesus in John 3:1-10. More information is given about it in 1Pet.1:23 and in John 1:12,13. These verses refer directly to the new birth.

John 3:1-10 -- What does born of the Spirit mean? What are the spiritual mechanics of it? That's what I've been trying to show.

1 Peter 1:23 -- 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

What it says is what I've been saying all along.

Can you answer post 108 in this thread/

Gotta go

Dave

 

[percho]

Hi DHK



Receiving the Spirit (NT) is how a person is placed "in Christ" and thus born again. Paul's remark "having begun in the Spirit" from in vs. 3 points back to vs. 2. So, vs. 3 cannot be speaking of "beginning in the Spirit" yet again.



John 3:1-10 -- What does born of the Spirit mean? What are the spiritual mechanics of it? That's what I've been trying to show.

1 Peter 1:23 -- 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

What it says is what I've been saying all along.

Can you answer post 108 in this thread/

Gotta go

Dave

What you post here concerning 1 Peter 1:3,23 is the point of my post 106.

If by the raising of Christ from the dead in verse 3 God the Father hath begotten or as in Young's did beget meaning conceived us unto a lively hope therefore we being raised from the dead then also verse 23 instead of born again of we are conceived, begotten again of.

Does not my post 106 say the exact same thing as 1 Peter 1:3,23 within this concept?

Also Gal. 3:2,3 is relative to this thought. We received the Spirit from Jesus who received it from the Father because of his death and being made alive again. That is the hearing of faith.
Having begun in the Spirit begotten, conceived
Have you achieved perfection in the flesh? NO! And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Be born again.

 

[Luke2427]

Regeneration: A process, or one time event?

Regeneration - Sanctification: At one time it was all considered regeneration. I believe the distinction made between regeneration and sanctification is needed, but does that distinction take sanctification outside of the realm of regeneration?

Why are these two examples not regeneration? If you think they are, would that not make regeneration a process? And if regeneration is a process, wouldn't it then be wrong to say that regeneration and the new birth are synonymous, because the new birth (one time act) would in fact be regeneration (process), but would not encompass the whole process of regeneration?

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

John :44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It really troubles me that so many seem to assume that regeneration and the new birth are synonymous. I haven't seen a good case for this thought yet. You see, if those two terms are synonymous, then both would need to be one time event, then "it" must happen pre faith to save the system. But we have other scripture, like above. Pre faith -faith -post faith.

I think that's why people try to say that being born again comes before faith, which is easy to disprove with scripture. The new birth is always the result of the spirit baptism, which is always the result of faith.

What say you?

peace

The new birth is the final stage of the process of regeneration.

All of it PRECEDES faith.

Unregenerate man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Receiving the things of the Spirit of God is the very ESSENCE of saving faith.

Therefore, unregenerate man cannot utilize saving faith.

It takes regeneration to be able to believe.

I John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Being born of God clearly PRECEDES believing in this verse.

 

[JesusFan]

The new birth is the final stage of the process of regeneration.

All of it PRECEDES faith.

Unregenerate man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Receiving the things of the Spirit of God is the very ESSENCE of saving faith.

Therefore, unregenerate man cannot utilize saving faith.

It takes regeneration to be able to believe.

I John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Being born of God clearly PRECEDES believing in this verse.

Actually, it would appear that its either faith first, causing the regeneration
Or
Faith/regeneration occuring at same time, or so close we would see it being same time book ends of process

DO see where the Lord sends grace on/to His elected person, whose will is thus enabled to do actual trepentance and turning to God
God quickens him to be able to hear and ubderstand and exercise faith in Jesus, after hearing the Gospel...

IF you mean a sort of ""effectual calling" proceeds faith and being saved that seems OK

dont see support for full blown regeneration first than faith than salvation

 

[revmwc]

The new birth is the final stage of the process of regeneration.

All of it PRECEDES faith.

Unregenerate man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Receiving the things of the Spirit of God is the very ESSENCE of saving faith.

Therefore, unregenerate man cannot utilize saving faith.

It takes regeneration to be able to believe.

I John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Being born of God clearly PRECEDES believing in this verse.

regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation or as it is found only twice in scripture as regeneration. Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5.

We become re-created by faith. We were dead in sin and our human spirit came alive and was regenerated or re-created because of faith. Faith must come first for with out faith

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 3:22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

Righteousness is not imputed until Faith has taken place.

Hebrews 11:
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Because of Faith Noah and the other seven were saved, faith came before righteousness was imputed just as faith comes before regeneration. Every part of salvation comes through faith but everything is so close but all aspects of salvation are driven by FAITH.

 

[DHK]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, ...

DEATH...in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Death in the Bible always is defined as separation.
IMO, the Calvinist has taken this word "death" defined it as lifelessness and built a false doctrine around a word that they have wrongly defined. Death is separation, not lifelessness.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)
--Even in physical death the definition is when the spirit is separated from the body. That is death--separation.

In Eph.2:1 (quoted above) they were once dead, but now are alive. Why? Not because they had no life or were lifeless (wrong definition), but because they were spiritually separated from God. Sin had separated them from God. The only way that they could be made alive is by reconciliation through Jesus Christ.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19)
--We are made alive through Christ. Christ uses men.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:20)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

A man is reconciled to God through the new birth. It is not a process, but a one time event that happens simultaneously with salvation and justification. It has nothing to do with sanctification.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, ...

He loved us enough to desire that we be born into his family. When we enter into this world we are automatically born into the family of the devil, thus the necessity of the new birth.

LIFE

...made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

This is one of the benefits of salvation; something we look forward to.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is how all of us are saved; there should be no controversy here.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I trust there is no disagreement here either. Good works follow salvation. That is the will of God.

Is this death to life here speaking of being born again? If so, do we need to be raised up with Christ to have that life? How are we raised up with Christ? ...

Being born again is being born into God's family.
There are two things necessary: John 3:5 indicates that the Holy Spirit is necessary, and 1Pet.1:23 is necessary. God uses the Holy Spirit to work through His Word (the gospel) to bring a person to himself, that that person may be born into his family. According to John 1:12,13, he is born of God by receiving Christ by believing on the name of name of Christ.

Can a person be born again before this happens...

Colossians 2:11-14 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I fail to see the connection. Paul was speaking of things already accomplished in the lives of these believers. In verse 10 he says:

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Colossians 2:10)

or this...

Romans 3:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 1For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This entire passage starts with a picture of baptism (which takes place after salvation and pictures our death to our old life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ), and then goes on to elaborate on the Christian life.

Consider...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I believe this verse is written to a local church, not applicable to any so-called universal church.

Why was this baptism still future in Matthew 3:10-12? (Also see John 1:33-34, Acts 1:5, Mark 1:7-8: Luke 3:16).

It was a different ministry.

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Dave

And what has that got to do with the new birth that Jesus speaks of in John 3?

 

[allinall]

Hi Luke

The new birth is the final stage of the process of regeneration.

All of it PRECEDES faith.

Would you consider any work done in us by the Spirit of God after our initial faith as regeneration? I do, so we may differ there.

Unregenerate man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Receiving the things of the Spirit of God is the very ESSENCE of saving faith.

Therefore, unregenerate man cannot utilize saving faith.

It takes regeneration to be able to believe.

I agree with this part as stated, minus the next quote. I guess what I'm getting at is that many people call that pre faith regeneration being born again. They believe that both are the same and thus, both are a one time act. I would say that being born again is the result of faith, and not the cause of it. I believe that regeneration is the cause of faith, but being born again is the result of faith. I see regeneration as a process, but being born again as a one time event within that process.

"Being born of God clearly PRECEDES believing in this verse."

Do you believe that being born again and regeneration are synonymous? If so, do you believe that being born again is a process too? If not, disregard the question.

I John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Not to nitpick, but there is no order there. John is simply stating simultaneous truths, that is, if you have faith, then you are born again. This doesn't contrast what I've been saying.

Dave

 

[allinall]

Have you achieved perfection in the flesh? NO!

Right, so the filling of the Spirit, or being perfected is an ongoing process. And the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2), which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a result of our initial, God given faith, is how we are born again "in Christ", through the resurrection, right?

Dave

 

[revmwc]

Right, so the filling of the Spirit, or being perfected is an ongoing process. And the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2), which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a result of our initial, God given faith, is how we are born again "in Christ", through the resurrection, right?

Dave

Except you forget Ephesians 5:18 which I believe is the Christian way of Life. Be ye not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be ye filled with the Spirit.

We are indwelt and filled at the point of Salvation but when we sin we lose the filling (control) of the Holy Spirit. The control as Paul points out is lost when we let sin control our lives instead of the Spirit.

Ephesians 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity for us is seen in these 7 ones. The One Baptism that pulls us all together is the Baptisnm of the Holy Spirit.

The body of the church in under one Spirit (Holy spirit), One hope of our calling (to salvation) One Lord (Jesus), One Faith (Faith in Him), One Baptism (of the Holy Spirit) that brings us all together, One God and Fatrher of all.

Beautiful passage by Paul showing how God pulled it altogheter making us one with Him.

 

[JesusFan]

Right, so the filling of the Spirit, or being perfected is an ongoing process. And the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2), which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a result of our initial, God given faith, is how we are born again "in Christ", through the resurrection, right?

Dave

The infilling of the Holy Spirit is a moment by moment "thing"
Basically, its allowing for Him to empower you, to live the life of Jesus in and thru you daily....

Sauntification is daily process where God molds you more into image of Christ, that you "put off" your old nature daily, and "put on" your new nature in Christ...

Can use Bible study/memorization/applications /prayer life witnessing all part of getting you more like Christ...

At moment of salvation, Holy Spirt comes to indwell us, and he never leaves, sealing yus until day God redeems fully at Seconfd Coming of Christ..

THAT is permenant one time event, BUT the infilling is making the choice to allow HIm to empower and enable us to live for God...

Really, that is ONLY way we can live for God, as w/o the Holy Spirit empowering us, all we have left to fall back upon is sinful flesh!