Regeneration Before Faith

[jbh28]

I am quite aware what drawing is. But if God is not drawing a man, he cannot possibly be resisting.

Yes he can, he resisting the call of God to come to him.

Let me give you an analogy, fishing. You hook a fish, you are drawing it in. But the fish is resisting, he is fighting. And some fish manage to break the line or jump off the hook.

But a fish that hasn't been hooked cannot be said to be resisting. He is swimming free.

Hi Winman, great analogy. The only problem is what are you drawing? Do you think when you fish that the fish every willingly comes? No, you are drawing a line or net. It is coming to you. You are not attracting the fish to cause them to come. Words have multiple definitions and this one has many. the word draw here in your example does (as it always does) imply that something comes, but it isn't the same as in John 6. John 6 says that no man can COME... The person comes when he is drawn(attract to cause to come.)

So no, you are not attracting the fish to cause the fish to come to you. If you do know how to do this, please share!

How anybody can deceive themselves to believe illogical doctrine like this is fantastic to say the least. You have to throw your common sense out the window to believe baloney like this.

Hey Winman, let's keep to discussing the subject maybe somewhere else if you like. I don't want to hijack this thread as it is about regeneration before faith. I did respond to your points but only to the one about drawn. If you want to discuss this, lets do it in another thread as long as we keep it to the subject and not with words like your last paragraph.

 

[kyredneck]

.... Truth draws lovers of truth. .....

....iluvit....thanks

 

[psalms109:31]

Regenerated

I never seen anyone being regenerated before hearing the word of our faith that comes from God through the words of Jesus.

We have a faith and we can believe, but the faith that comes from God is different than our faith and our belief. We can have faith, but we can't have the faith that saves without the words of Jesus.

We have to humble ourselves and listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus which is the Father and the words is also Spirit and life.

Through the words of Jesus we can do what God tells us to to believe and be saved or not and continue in condemnation.

So it is best to just humble ourselves listen and learn from the Father if not we are not going to come or be drawn by the Father. Why because God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned.

Pride goes before destruction and a faulty spirit before a fall.

Following a crowd is not being drawn by the Father and they will be weeded out.

 

[Winman]

Yes he can, he resisting the call of God to come to him.

I don't know how you can sincerely persist in this, God is not really calling the unelect. He doesn't sincerely want them, if he did he would call them effectually. God is not applying any power toward them at all, so they are not resisting him at all.

I think it was John Wesley who gave this analogy of Calvinism, he said it was like men who are prisoners in a jail cell and God stands outside and says "Come out! Come out to me!" The men respond, "We cannot, we are locked behind these bars no man can break, and only you Lord have the key to unlock the door." But again God says, "Come out, come out to me!". Again they respond, "We cannot, we cannot come out unless you release us."

And Wesley was right. You have God calling men that God knows cannot possibly obey him without his assistance. So, you have God mocking helpless men, and basically lying to them, because his invitation is insincere, God does not really want them to come or he would help them come.

 

[jbh28]

I don't know how you can sincerely persist in this, God is not really calling the unelect. He doesn't sincerely want them, if he did he would call them effectually. God is not applying any power toward them at all, so they are not resisting him at all.

I think it was John Wesley who gave this analogy of Calvinism, he said it was like men who are prisoners in a jell cell and God stands outside and says "Come out! Come out to me!" The men respond, "We cannot, we are locked behind these bars no man can break, and only you Lord have the key to unlock the door." But again God says, "Come out, come out to me!". Again they respond, "We cannot, we cannot come out unless you release us."

And Wesley was right. You have God calling men that God knows cannot possibly obey him without his assistance. So, you have God mocking helpless men, and basically lying to them, because his invitation is insincere, God does not really want them to come or he would help them come.

I guess you think God is unable to save them. He would if He could, but is powerless to save them.

 

[Winman]

Hi Winman, great analogy. The only problem is what are you drawing? Do you think when you fish that the fish every willingly comes? No, you are drawing a line or net. It is coming to you. You are not attracting the fish to cause them to come. Words have multiple definitions and this one has many. the word draw here in your example does (as it always does) imply that something comes, but it isn't the same as in John 6. John 6 says that no man can COME... The person comes when he is drawn(attract to cause to come.)

So no, you are not attracting the fish to cause the fish to come to you. If you do know how to do this, please share!

It's called bait.

 

[Winman]

I guess you think God is unable to save them. He would if He could, but is powerless to save them.

I believe God is able to save 100% of all men who ever lived. That does not mean God will save every man, God saves conditionally upon a man coming by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

But that is not what saves in Calvinism, it is election that saves in Calvinism. If God elects you before the foundation of the world, you will be irresistably saved. If God chooses to pass you by before the foundation of the world, then you will be hopelessly lost. So faith in Christ is made secondary, because unless God first elects you, he will never regenerate you and cause you to have faith in Christ.

And to respond to Dr. Walter who said this:

Second, I Corinthians 1:26-30 is a powerful rebuke to your position and especially the words "not many are called." The calling under consideration is effectual to salvation.

Nice try Doc, but this passage contradicts Unconditional Election because it says God elects men because they are foolish, weak, base, and despised to confound the wise. That my friend constitutes a reason or cause.

1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

So, if this passage is speaking of election, then the doctrine of Unconditional Election is false. If this passage is speaking of election, it appears that God does not care too much for men who are intellectually wise, or who are noble, or who are mighty. How they could have these qualities before they were born escapes me.

Nice try though.

 

[jbh28]

I believe God is able to save 100% of all men who ever lived. That does not mean God will save every man, God saves conditionally upon a man coming by faith in his Son Jesus Christ.

Good, you admit that God has chosen not to save everyone. He could have if He wanted to, but chose not to.

I agree that salvation is conditioned on faith.

But that is not what saves in Calvinism, it is election that saves in Calvinism.

Not true at all. If you can't even understand what one believes, then don't speak as if you do. Election saves no one. Election is something that happens before the even. We elect officials to be in office. they will then later be in that office. God elects to save some, but it isn't until later they are saved.

If God elects you before the foundation of the world, you will be irresistably saved. If God chooses to pass you by before the foundation of the world, then you will be hopelessly lost.[/quote]Yes, if god chooses not to save you, then you will remain in the position that you were already in. The position that you deserve. The position that He is just leaving you in. The position you want to be in.

So faith in Christ is made secondary, because unless first elects you, he will never regenerate you and cause you to have faith in Christ.

It's all part of salvation. Before the foundation of the word. God elects to save you. Regeneration is required for salvation. i believe faith, regeneration and repentance all happens at the same time. One is not saved without faith and repentance. One is not saved without regeneration. One will never repent or put faith in Christ without being regenerated. One isn't regenerated that doesn't have faith.

 

[jbh28]

It's called bait.

Yes, bait would draw the fish to the line. And you only draw the fish to the line if he comes to the line....so I guess I see what part you were speaking of there, but still, draw=come.

btw...I started another thread on this subject so we don't hi jack this one as it is about regeneration before faith and not about drawing.

 

[Winman]

Good, you admit that God has chosen not to save everyone. He could have if He wanted to, but chose not to.

God has chosen to only save those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe 100% of all men have the ability to choose to trust in Christ if they will to do so. If they willingly trust in Christ they will be saved, if they reject Christ they will be lost.

I do not agree that God could save everyone. If I said that I was mistaken. God can only save those who trust in Christ.

 

[gb93433]

I don't know how you can sincerely persist in this, God is not really calling the unelect. He doesn't sincerely want them, if he did he would call them effectually. God is not applying any power toward them at all, so they are not resisting him at all.

Mt. 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[AresMan]

It's called bait.

The word for draw in the case of the disciples fishing was not used in the context of bait on a hook. They were using nets to draw fish out of the water.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The word "draw" in the case of the fisherman failed not to a lack of will by the fisherman but a lack of POWER. God has both the will and the power and never fails to draw those He gives to the Son to be saved.

Notice in verse 37 that "ALL" the Father gives come and in verse 39 "of all" the Father gives NOT ONE FAIL to come and NOT ONE is lost.

Notice in verse 44 that NONE can come but those drawn by the Father and NOT ONE drawn fails to come.

Notice in verse 45-46 that "EVERYONE" God does this inward work within COMES to the Son.

If ALL that the Father gives comes and not one fails to be saved "OF ALL" He gives then that is effectually giving.

If ALL that the Father draws comes and not one fails to be saved then that is effectual drawing.

For the other position held by some on this forum to be true, they must prove that NOT ALL the Father gives comes or NOT ALL the Father draws comes or NOT ALL that come are saved. If they cannot prove this then ALL who are given are the elect as they ALL COME. If they cannot prove this then ALL who are drawn are the elect as they ALL COME.

As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. - Jn. 17:2

Who does Jesus say are given eternal life out of "all flesh"? "to as many as thou HAST GIVEN HIM."

The word for draw in the case of the disciples fishing was not used in the context of bait on a hook. They were using nets to draw fish out of the water.

 

[MB]

The word "draw" in the case of the fisherman failed not to a lack of will by the fisherman but a lack of POWER. God has both the will and the power and never fails to draw those He gives to the Son to be saved.

Since John 12:32 says He draws all. This sounds as if you're saying that everyone is saved and cannot rebel against it.

Notice in verse 37 that "ALL" the Father gives come and in verse 39 "of all" the Father gives NOT ONE FAIL to come and NOT ONE is lost.

except for the son of perdition. something you don't want others to notice. We are all sons of perdition until we are saved. If we reject Christ we seal our fate as sons of destruction.

Notice in verse 44 that NONE can come but those drawn by the Father and NOT ONE drawn fails to come.

Notice in verse 45-46 that "EVERYONE" God does this inward work within COMES to the Son.

except the son's of perdition all who rebel against the drawing and are son's of perdition.

If ALL that the Father gives comes and not one fails to be saved "OF ALL" He gives then that is effectually giving.

If ALL that the Father draws comes and not one fails to be saved then that is effectual drawing.

Being drawn doesn't guarantee Salvation. Jews are drawn but Paul said;

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For the other position held by some on this forum to be true, they must prove that NOT ALL the Father gives comes or NOT ALL the Father draws comes or NOT ALL that come are saved. If they cannot prove this then ALL who are given are the elect as they ALL COME. If they cannot prove this then ALL who are drawn are the elect as they ALL COME.

As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. - Jn. 17:2

Who does Jesus say are given eternal life out of "all flesh"? "to as many as thou HAST GIVEN HIM."

Consider it proven: Judas was a man just like the rest of us. He was drawn and chosen yet he rebelled. This fact disproves your assumption.
All men can rebel. In fact most do.
Man is not chosen by God unless the man is in Christ. Eph 1:4.

MB

 

[jbh28]

Since John 12:32 says He draws all. This sounds as if you're saying that everyone is saved and cannot rebel against it.

So then, we either believe in universalism, or one of our interpretations is wrong. We can either look at context and get the context of "all" or we can change the definition of the word "draw" in John 6.

except for the son of perdition. something you don't want others to notice. We are all sons of perdition until we are saved. If we reject Christ we seal our fate as sons of destruction.

except the son's of perdition all who rebel against the drawing and are son's of perdition.

Care to elaborate? Jesus says that all that the father gives will come. Do you have a passage that says otherwise?

Being drawn doesn't guarantee Salvation. Jews are drawn but Paul said;

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Being drawn...yes, but being drawn to Christ as in John 6, yes, that is salvation. Jesus says he will raise you up on the last day.

Consider it proven: Judas was a man just like the rest of us. He was drawn and chosen yet he rebelled. This fact disproves your assumption.
All men can rebel. In fact most do.


MB

Judas was not chosen for salvation. You are using equivocation here by making chosen to be the same. Yes, Judas was chosen to be a disciple, but not chosen to Salvation. Two totally different things. He was not drawn to Christ, because he would then have come to Christ and be raised up on the last day.

Man is not chosen by God unless the man is in Christ. Eph 1:4.

Wrong, that passage doesn't say that we are chosen when we are in Christ. It says we are chosen before the foundation of the world. Our election was done in Christ, we were not there yet because we had not been born.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Since John 12:32 says He draws all. This sounds as if you're saying that everyone is saved and cannot rebel against it.
except for the son of perdition. something you don't want others to notice. We are all sons of perdition until we are saved. If we reject Christ we seal our fate as sons of destruction.

except the son's of perdition all who rebel against the drawing and are son's of perdition.

Being drawn doesn't guarantee Salvation. Jews are drawn but Paul said;

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Consider it proven: Judas was a man just like the rest of us. He was drawn and chosen yet he rebelled. This fact disproves your assumption.
All men can rebel. In fact most do.
Man is not chosen by God unless the man is in Christ. Eph 1:4.

MB

Jesus clearly states that Judas had never really beleived in Christ (Jn. 6:64-65) and that the Father had never given faith unto him (Jn. 6:65). Therefore he was never drawn in the sense described in John 6:44-455 as John 6:65 directly refers to 44-45 and denies that Judas had been thus "given" unto by the Father.

In John 12 the Greek text omits the word "men" and uses the anarthous construction for the word "all" making it clearly understood to his listeners that he means all men without distinction rather than all men without exception. The immediate context called for this languague as there were Gentiles seeking him and the common Jew of that day considered them unclean and to be avoided just as they did the Samaritan woman. Therefore, both the grammar and the context demonstrate Jesus had in mind the gentiles who were seeking him.

If you really think that Judas was not specially chosen to fulfll this task then you better cut out the Old Testament prophecies concerning him for this task. Such Old Testament prophecies clearly demonstrate your argument is fallacious as all men are not in that category.

I read your arguments and they appear to me that you are not really interested in truth but in defending a preconceived theory. You have to be objective and honest with the scriptures if you really want to know the truth.

 

[Winman]

So then, we either believe in universalism, or one of our interpretations is wrong. We can either look at context and get the context of "all" or we can change the definition of the word "draw" in John 6.

Why do you confuse being drawn with being given? They are two different things altogether.

All that come were drawn- True

All that are drawn will come- False

All that are given will come- True

All that were given were drawn- True

All that are drawn are given and will come- False

I don't understand why Calvinists pretend they can't understand this. In John 12:32 Jesus said he will draw all men to himself. Are all men saved? No. So therefore, not all that are drawn will come and be saved. Simple, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

However, all that are given are saved. How were they given? They were given by the Father in the respect that they were taught and learned of the Father. How? By the word of God which the Father gave us. And this is how they were drawn, by the word of God.

Not all that are drawn are the given. Only those who learn from the Father and are taught by him who come to Jesus are the given. Those who are drawn but rebel and pull away are lost.

This is not difficult. The problem is that Calvinists clearly know this contradicts their doctrine, and so pretend they do not understand.

So, you gave the answer above, your interpretation is error.

 

[Winman]

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

This verse destroys the doctrine of Calvinism. It shows God calls men who refuse to hear and answer, and it also shows man has the free will to make this choice.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Why do you confuse being drawn with being given? They are two different things altogether.

All that come were drawn- True

All that are drawn will come- False

All that are given will come- True

All that were given were drawn- True

All that are drawn are given and will come- False

I don't understand why Calvinists pretend they can't understand this. In John 12:32 Jesus said he will draw all men to himself. Are all men saved? No. So therefore, not all that are drawn will come and be saved. Simple, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

However, all that are given are saved. How were they given? They were given by the Father in the respect that they were taught and learned of the Father. How? By the word of God which the Father gave us. And this is how they were drawn, by the word of God.

Not all that are drawn are the given. Only those who learn from the Father and are taught by him who come to Jesus are the given. Those who are drawn but rebel and pull away are lost.

This is not difficult. The problem is that Calvinists clearly know this contradicts their doctrine, and so pretend they do not understand.

So, you gave the answer above, your interpretation is error.

In John 6:44 all that are drawn do come. The same "he" that is drawn is the same "he" Christ says will be risen.

In John 6:45 "all" who are taught are "EVERONE" that has heard and learned of the Father and "EVERYONE" does come.

In John 6:64 simple profession in Christ is not the same as being drawn to Christ as demonstrated in Jn. 6:65.

In John 12:32 the word "men" is not in the Greek text and the word "all" is found in the anarthous construct and necessarily means "all classes" or "all kinds" and therefore does not mean all without exception but all without distinction. The immediate preceding context demonstrates why Jesus used this particular grammatical construction because GENTILES were seeking him and Jews believed they were unclean.

All that come were drawn- True

All that are drawn will come- True

All that are given will come- True

All that were given were drawn- True

All that are drawn are given and will come- True

The only way you can escape these conclusion is by smoke and mirrors. You go to passages that do not use the same Greek term translated "draw" and instead of being honest and admitting that there are different terms translated "draw" and DIFFERENT MEANINGS you lump them all together.

You ignore that the same Greek term used in John 6:44 and John 12:32 NEVER means entice or lure but the object of this verb is ALWAYS passive and the subject of this verb is ALWAYS active.

You ignore the differences between subjects where in John 6 the omnipotent God man is the subject but in other texts finite humans are the subject and the only issue is lack of power when used of finite humans.

From all indications you are not really interested in the truth but in defending a defenseless position.

 

[Winman]

In John 6:44 all that are drawn do come. The same "he" that is drawn is the same "he" Christ says will be risen.

That is not what John 6:44 says at all. Read it again.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It does not say all that are drawn will come. It says all that come were drawn. That is a huge difference. All cherries are red, but not everything that is red is a cherry.

If I call my four kids to supper and only two obey and come, were they all drawn? Yes. Did they all come? No.

Only those who obey and come are given supper by their father. If they get supper was it given to them? Yes. If they get supper were they drawn? Yes. Do all who were drawn and come get supper? Yes. Are those who disobey and do not come when I call given supper? No. Were they drawn? Yes.

Why do Calvinists persist in this? This is simple, my 8 year old son could easily understand this, but you pretend you cannot understand it.

In John 6:45 "all" who are taught are "EVERONE" that has heard and learned of the Father and "EVERYONE" does come.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You are correct in this verse. Those who come were taught and learned of the Father. This is what I have said to you several times, nobody is simply walking around ignorant of the gospel and is suddenly regenerated to know and understand it. If you know the gospel, you either read it in the scriptures that God gave, or you heard preaching from the scriptures that God gave. So, nobody comes to Christ unless it (the word of God) was given them by the Father.

But saying someone has been taught and learned of the Father does not mean that everyone who hears the gospel will be saved. Many people hear the gospel but disregard it. They refuse to listen to it, they refuse to believe it. They hear the gospel, but they are not taught by the gospel. That is not God's fault, it is their own fault because they refuse to listen and be taught.

Anyone with kids understands this. My son when he was around two kept trying to touch a hot lightbulb. I yelled at him several times not to touch it and told him it was very hot. He understood me and twice jerked his hand away. But he was being rebellious and kept reaching up to touch it. Finally, I said "Go ahead, touch the light.". He did, and immediately screamed in pain and ran to his mother. He got a nice blister on his finger. He never again tried to touch a hot lightbulb.

Now, he could have been smart and simply listened to me. He understood my words, but refused to listen and be taught by me. So, he learned the hard way that a lightbulb can be very hot and burn you.

And this is the same with the gospel. Many people hear the gospel, it is given to them by the Father. But they refuse to listen to it and believe it, and therefore never come to Christ. But those who do listen to and believe God's word will come to Christ. So God gets all the credit, unless they were taught by the Father they would never come to Christ.