Regeneration or Conversion?

[Frogman]

I see the definition of 'belief' as a noun this is the body of doctrine that one accepts as truth, Now, 'believe, you speak of it as something you DID, this makes it a verb. A verb shows action. Your definition provided shows it to be a verb believe, v., ; this definitely shows, implies, and conjures to mind an action. Of your belief in Jesus you ascribe solely to yourself, though you at times admit that man is tended toward sinfulness, you want to pretend he can overlook this tendency and at his will 'believe' this is error, untruth. Man must believe by the power of the Spirit of Holiness which is the same power which brought Christ from the Grave. If man believes by his own will, he has performed a work and salvation is of Grace alone.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Harald]

Some have said that (God-wrought) faith is a self-emptying grace. Paul contrasted faith and works. By works he obviously meant some kind of work, deed, act, or effort, which was undertaken with the objective of gaining, securing, or maintaining some favour with God Almighty. A work as performed by the one working expects some reward or wages. If a professing believer is asked the question "why did you believe in Christ?", and his answer is in the vein of "well, I believed in order to get born again", then he has performed a work, and true faith is far from him.

True faith which is of the operation of God will testify as respects all of salvation that he (the sinner in question) has done nothing and could do nothing to get justified and/or regenerated etc. in the sight of a thrice holy God. Genuine faith credits all of salvation to the one(s) to whom the credit is due, i.e. to Christ Jesus, and to the other two Divine persons in the eternal triune Godhead. Paul did say in Rom. 3:27 that (genuine) faith excluded boasting once and for all, aorist is employed by Paul with the verb for to boast. If a person boasts of having been justified before God the Judge by or through subjective heart faith IN Jesus Christ then he is not exhibiting true faith which is of God's operation. True Spirit-empowered faith, which is in the heart of one who has been experimentally justified, will deny that subjective faith had any part in his/her justification in the sight of the Almighty, but will credit all of that which the Bible calls "justification of life" to Him who is the justifier, even Christ Jesus the Righteous. God-empowered faith will point to Christ as all in all in the bussiness of a sinner's justification before the holy God. Counterfeit faith, i.e. works-faith, will credit all or some part of a claimed justification before God to the subjective faith of the sinner. A clear famous example of this is Martin Luther, and his solafidianism.


Harald

 

[Yelsew]

I see the definition of 'belief' as a noun this is the body of doctrine that one accepts as truth, Now, 'believe, you speak of it as something you DID, this makes it a verb. A verb shows action. Your definition provided shows it to be a verb believe, v., ; this definitely shows, implies, and conjures to mind an action. Of your belief in Jesus you ascribe solely to yourself, though you at times admit that man is tended toward sinfulness, you want to pretend he can overlook this tendency and at his will 'believe' this is error, untruth. Man must believe by the power of the Spirit of Holiness which is the same power which brought Christ from the Grave. If man believes by his own will, he has performed a work and salvation is of Grace alone.

It is belief that I have in Jesus!
It is sustained belief that I have in Jesus!
My belief in Jesus is what saves me from the Lake of Fire.
I believe the Holy Word of God,
I believe in life eternal,
I believe it is Faith alone, that saves one from the lake of fire.
I believe that Jesus died on the cross for the atonement of the sins of the world,
I believe that because Jesus atones for my sins, that I am justified before the throne of God.
I believe that because I believe in Jesus, that I am sanctified, that is set apart from those who do not believe in Jesus.
My belief is substantiated in holy scripture.

To say that man believing by his own will is a work, is purely stupid! Belief and believing along with unbelieving and rejecting are the only things that man can do, and none of them requires effort expended. They are not works!

Since Salvation is "NOT OF WORKS", I strongly suggest you explain how one can be saved without believing and belief! You've already agreed that God does not force Himself upon you. That means that man must agree with God in order for God to do a work in man.

 

[Yelsew]

Some have said that (God-wrought) faith is a self-emptying grace.

Are you saying that faith is equal to the attribute of Grace? Thus saying that grace is nothing more than faith?

If a professing believer is asked the question "why did you believe in Christ?", and his answer is in the vein of "well, I believed in order to get born again", then he has performed a work, and true faith is far from him.

False idea! Because believing is being born again (regeneration)! It is by believing that one's allegiences change from dead in Christ to Alive in Christ!

True faith which is of the operation of God

This means to me that no one can have faith unless God "instills" faith in the one. Therefore each reference in scripture that says a man is to have faith in God is null and void because man cannot have faith unless God instills it. Do you really believe that man cannot have faith? In anything? What about all those unbelievers that have faith in themselves, in money, in their work, in their families, their governments, etc. Is that faith not true faith? No you say? You are just as wrong as can be. Faith is faith regardless of who or what the object of faith may be. If man can have faith in that which is not God, man can have faith in God! It is that simple!

...will testify as respects all of salvation that he (the sinner in question) has done nothing and could do nothing to get justified and/or regenerated etc. in the sight of a thrice holy God.

Ah Yes, Justification! Just what is Justification

justification, n.
1. a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.
2. an act of justifying: The painter's justification of his failure to finish on time didn't impress me.
3. the state of being justified.
4. Also called "justification by faith". Theol. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin...

The result of Atonement is Justification! Therefore because Jesus' Atonement is for the sins of the World. Everyone who is of the world has their sins atoned, and they are therefore Justified in the sight of God. For that reason, Sins are not a factor in the White Throne Judgment of God. Faith alone, or the lack of faith is the determining factor in one's eternal destiny.

Genuine faith?

All faith is genuine faith. The object of faith may not be genuine, but all faith is genuine.

Genuine faith credits all of salvation to the one(s) to whom the credit is due, i.e. to Christ Jesus, and to the other two Divine persons in the eternal triune Godhead.

Faith does not credit anything to any one; people credit their faith in something or someone to something or someone. I have never heard of faith crediting Salvation to any thing or anyone. Faith is a credit only to the one having faith.

Paul did say in Rom. 3:27 that (genuine) faith excluded boasting once and for all, aorist is employed by Paul with the verb for to boast.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If a person boasts of having been justified before God the Judge by or through subjective heart faith IN Jesus Christ then he is not exhibiting true faith which is of God's operation.

FALSE!! I AM JUSTIFIED BY THE ATONING BLOOD OF JESUS, who is the CHRIST. I have ABSOLUTE Faith in Jesus Christ, my faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Notice, the scripture DOES NOT SAY, "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORK of God! Did God give us His WORD? Yes, but he did not give (impose) our faith in God, because faith cometh by hearing His Word, and believing what it says, thus believing In Jesus is the result of our believing the Gospel message contained in His Word.

True Spirit-empowered faith, which is in the heart of one who has been experimentally justified, will deny that subjective faith had any part in his/her justification in the sight of the Almighty, but will credit all of that which the Bible calls "justification of life" to Him who is the justifier, even Christ Jesus the Righteous.

I don't think you have the foggiest truth about Justification.

God-empowered faith will point to Christ as all in all in the bussiness of a sinner's justification before the holy God.

Again, you do not know the truth of Justification.

Counterfeit faith, i.e. works-faith, will credit all or some part of a claimed justification before God to the subjective faith of the sinner. A clear famous example of this is Martin Luther, and his solafidianism.

There is no such thing as individual justification, likewise there is no such thing as universal or collective faith in an individual. Justification is for all mankind, faith is an individual response to justification.

Romans 3:21-26. God's saving justice was witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but now it has been revealed altogether apart from law: God's saving justice given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God's glory, and all are justified by the free gift of his grace through being set free in Christ Jesus. God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand; and now again for the present age, to show how he is just and justifies everyone who has faith in Jesus.

(What faith does)

Romans 3:27-31. So what becomes of our boasts? There is no room for them. On what principle, that only actions count? No; that faith is what counts, since, as we see it, a person is justified by faith and not by doing what the Law tells him to do. Do you think God is the God only of the Jews, and not of gentiles too? Most certainly of gentiles too, since there is only one God; he will justify the circumcised by their faith, and he will justify the uncircumcised through their faith. Are we saying that the Law has been made pointless by faith? Out of the question; we are placing the Law on its true footing.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Harald]

Yelsew. In the beginning when I said "self-emptying GRACE" I did not refer to God's grace as in "by the grace are ye saved..." (Eph. 2:8). The sense in which I used "grace" is "a virtue coming from God" (Webster's Coll. Dictionary, 10th ed.).

I see we differ greatly on these issues. I believe one gospel and you believe another.

As for the Bible version you quoted in the end I must say you could not have picked a more perverse one. You are obviously fond of Dynamic Equivalent perversions. I suggest next time you quote from a literal Formal Equivalent version, such as YLT, LITV, KJV et.al.


Harald

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew. In the beginning when I said "self-emptying GRACE" I did not refer to God's grace as in "by the grace are ye saved..." (Eph. 2:8). The sense in which I used "grace" is "a virtue coming from God" (Webster's Coll. Dictionary, 10th ed.).

There are two Graces, God's grace and Man's grace. Grace is an attribute, something that is true of the one having it. Grace is not something that can be given away or transfered from one being to another. Grace is a behavioral constraint for the one having grace. You have grace, God instilled grace in man in the creation. Your grace constrains your behavior toward others and yourself, but you cannot give your grace to another.

I see we differ greatly on these issues. I believe one gospel and you believe another.

The gospel is the same, the reception and perception of the gospel may differ though.

As for the Bible version you quoted in the end I must say you could not have picked a more perverse one. You are obviously fond of Dynamic Equivalent perversions. I suggest next time you quote from a literal Formal Equivalent version, such as YLT, LITV, KJV et.al.

Having studied using various versions of the scriptures over 50 years, I can tell you the message of God is not is one or two words, nor is it in verses or Chapters. It is in thoughts, just the way we speak to each other. The NJB does a fine Job of communicating God's messages to man, therefore I see no reason to change. I have a variety of bible versions installed on my computer, and find little difference if any at all between the versions you suggest and the NJB.

 

[Harald]

Yelsew. It seems to me you misunderstand how I used the word grace, although I tried to explain.

In the Bible the word grace is most often used in connection with God. Simply put the word grace means "unmerited or undeserved favour". I ask you, is "undeserved favour" an attribute? I would rather say it is an act or something, but not an attribute. Holiness is an attribute of God, because God is holy. Grace on the part of God is a transitive thing. His attributes are intransitive things, existing in Him irrespective of other beings. Grace is transitive and cannot be exhibited apart from inferior beings. God shows grace and bestows grace etc.

As for versions it seems to me you deny the doctrine of verbal and plenary inspiration in practice, by favouring loose DE versions which have not much regard for the plenary inspired wording of the Greek Testament of Christ Jesus the Lord, from which they are claimedly translated. 50 years has not made you a bit wise in this area.


Harald

 

[Pastor Larry]

Keep the Bible version discussion in its proper place and back off on the personal comments. Keep it above board.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Harald:
Yelsew. It seems to me you misunderstand how I used the word grace, although I tried to explain.

In the Bible the word grace is most often used in connection with God. Simply put the word grace means "unmerited or undeserved favour". I ask you, is "undeserved favour" an attribute? I would rather say it is an act or something, but not an attribute. Holiness is an attribute of God, because God is holy. Grace on the part of God is a transitive thing. His attributes are intransitive things, existing in Him irrespective of other beings. Grace is transitive and cannot be exhibited apart from inferior beings. God shows grace and bestows grace etc.

As for versions it seems to me you deny the doctrine of verbal and plenary inspiration in practice, by favouring loose DE versions which have not much regard for the plenary inspired wording of the Greek Testament of Christ Jesus the Lord, from which they are claimedly translated. 50 years has not made you a bit wise in this area.


Harald

Wisdom is perception. Scripture says the Gospel message, for example, is made simple to confound the wise, SO, who is wise if they miss the message?. The fact that you do not see the wisdom in my posts is not my problem but your own. The fact that you cannot see the wisdom of God's Word in the "loose DE version" that I prefer is also not my problem but yours. I compare the NJB to the KJV, The YLT, The RSV, Darby's, etc. and find the differences that are apparent so insignificant as to render those differences of no consequence. If a single word substituted causes the thought to change sufficient to lose its meaning in context, then it is wrong to use that substitute word. However if the original meaning remains intact within the confines of more modern language, then no harm is done so long as the original lanquage is never lost! That repository of original language is not my responsibility. My responsibility is to spread the message in what ever form it is able to be received.

My perceived misunderstanding of your use of the word grace is the result of your wrong application of the word in my opinion. One must have a fundamental understanding of the Holy in order to correctly apply that which is true of the Holy. When we embellish the truth of deity, we distort the message of deity.

The scriptures are full of man's misunderstanding of deity. That, for example, God "gives" his grace, is a misconception of God's application of Grace. Consider your own grace, and yes, you do have grace or you would not be able to behave graceously toward others which is you behaving toward others with unmerited favor. In doing so, you did not "give" any of your grace, you behaved in accordance with your grace. God's Grace is divine constraint for divine behavior. God's grace is not transferred from divine being to mortal being. God retains 100% of his Grace, and that constrains his behavior toward us. "For by grace" means that God is behaving in accordance with his grace. "Are ye saved through faith", meaning that while God is showing unmerited favor toward his sinful creation, we are saved through our faith.

I ask you, is "undeserved favour" an attribute?

NO, but the means of delivering "undeserved favor", GRACE, is an attribute. Grace is the divine constrainer, "undeserved favor" is the result.

The attributes of Grace, love, mercy, justice, etc. ARE NOT transferrable "things" like candy that is handed from one to another. When one gives grace, there is nothing transfered from one to another! If you think otherwise, prove it!

Grace is transitive and cannot be exhibited apart from inferior beings. God shows grace and bestows grace etc.

What proof do you offer in support of your declarations? Send me a portion of your grace so that I can have some. If God has given you his grace, share it with me by sending me some of God's grace too.

 

[Frogman]

Grace is unmerited favor.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Grace is unmerited favor.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

God's Grace toward humanity is unmerited in accordance with the behavior of mankind. Inspite of our behavior, God favors us and withholds his justice against our sins.

That does not change the fact that God's grace is not a commodity that can be transferred from God to man. A provable condition, as previously shown.

 

[Frogman]

That means that man must agree with God in order for God to do a work in man.

Exactly. Psalms 110.3. Read it, it shows that God does not force his Will on any of his people, but that they are made willing.

BTW, I went back to read where you proved Grace was an attribute and even one that man possesses and all I saw was that you declared me stupid. Well if that is what prove that Grace is an attribute of God and likewise of man so be it. But in my stupidity I would rather believe the Word of God than your theology.

One moment you speak of salvation as eternal, the next you say it can be lost, one post you say man has a free will, the next you say he must believe.

How is a man who sees only the earthly things to believe the heavenly things when he cannot see the heavenly things? By God's Grace alone.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew]

That means that man must agree with God in order for God to do a work in man. Exactly. Psalms 110.3. Read it, it shows that God does not force his Will on any of his people, but that they are made willing.

Psalm 110:3. Royal dignity has been yours from the day of your birth, sacred honour from the womb, from the dawn of your youth.

Is this the Psalms 110:3 that you were referring to?

BTW, I went back to read where you proved Grace was an attribute and even one that man possesses and all I saw was that you declared me stupid. Well if that is what prove that Grace is an attribute of God and likewise of man so be it. But in my stupidity I would rather believe the Word of God than your theology.

Then prove what I've posted to be wrong!

One moment you speak of salvation as eternal, the next you say it can be lost, one post you say man has a free will, the next you say he must believe.

I did not say that belief is eternal. I said that one's salvation is totally dependent upon the condition of one's belief when Judged. If you are not in the state of belief in the HOLY when before the throne of God, you are lost! If you believe then stop believing you are lost just as the seed that sprouts, grows, then dies before producing. That is the meaning in the parable of the sower. Believing unto salvation is a continuous condition. It is not a once for all time event like the Atonement. When your wife married you, it was for a lifetime, not for a one night stand. When you are the bride of Christ, which is the result of continous believing in the Christ, it too is not a one night stand. But if it becomes one, because of your unfaithfulness and loss of belief in your bridegroom, you are no longer a bride of Christ because of your infidelity and adultery. There will be no adulterers in heaven.

How is a man who sees only the earthly things to believe the heavenly things when he cannot see the heavenly things? By God's Grace alone.

The Heavenly things that man cannot see, are not intended for unbelieving man to see, and not for
"newborn" man who is still receiving nurture from the MILK of the Word, the Gospel.

God created man to have a brain, and to be ABLE to use it. You are saying that what God created is not good...regardless of what you think the reason may be. Man's sin did not cause the loss of mental ability, it did not take away any of what God created in human life. You sir, have fallen for the same lies that brought on the DARK AGES! You have been saying all along that Man has no ability to hear and to believe or to decide what to believe. You beliefs equate to a DUMBING DOWN of humanity by oft repeating that man is not able to use the faculties that God gave him in the creation.

Is man what God created man to be? NO!
Did God alter man! NO!
IS SIN ALL THAT POWERFUL? NO!

Is He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world! YES!
Can we do all things through Christ who strengthens us? The bible says YES! I believe it!

But what about those that don't have Christ within?
What about you before you believed? If you had not heard the Word of God and believed, you would be just like them!
Tell them, those who hear the Word then bear the responsibility for believing or not!

 

[Frogman]

Psalms 110:3  Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Above you will find what Ps. 110.3 has recorded by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Harald]

Yelsew. I did not speak about grace being a transferable thing. I said it was a transitive thing on the part of God. Here are two definitions of the word transitive.


Transitive
(grammar) designating a verb that requires a direct object to complete the meaning (Word Web)

Webster's on e-Sword:

TRANS'ITIVE, a. Having the power of passing.

1. In grammar, a transitive verb is one which is or may be followed by an object; a verb expressing an action which passes from the agent to an object, from the subject which does, to the object on which it is done. Thus, "Cicero wrote letters to Atticus." In this sentence,the act of writing, performed by Cicero, the agent, terminates on letters, the object. All verbs not passive, may be arranged in two classes, transitive and intransitive. In English, this division is correct and complete.

Yelsew. Grace and undeserved favour are the same thing. Thus one cannot be the means of delivering the other. You sound confused in your reasoning. Undeserved/unmerited favour (grace) is not an attribute. It is something which God exhibits towards some of His creatures. It may perhaps also be said to be a frame of mind on the part of God, in which He does certain things. But not an attribute as I see it. I have nowhere said God can transfer "undeserved favour" ("grace"), or implant it into a creature of His. It seems this is what you think I meant. But He can cause a "grace" to exist in one of His creatures. Here by "a grace" I mean "a virtue coming from God" (Webster's). The latter is how e.g. some Puritans of old and also Baptists of old used the word "grace" in addition to "undeserved favour". True God-wrought faith which is of the operation of God may be said to be "a grace" - a virtue coming from God. True meekness of the fruit of the Spirit is also a grace, like as goodness, godly love etc., see Gal. ch. 5 at the end somewhere.

God exhibits grace towards certain creatures of His, and He does it in graciousness and lovingkindness. He also exhibits or shows mercy to some, mercy meaning compassion, because He is merciful. Mercy is likewise not an attribute, but mercifulness is, as I understand it.

You asked proof of me when I said God shows grace and bestows grace. What say you about this verse, Eph. 1:6, ...


(EMTV) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He bestowed favor upon us in the Beloved.

compare with

(WEB) to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved,

Harald

 

[Yelsew]

Attribute: That which is true of the one possessing it. To say that Grace is not an attribute of God is to say that Love is not an attribute of God, is to say that mercy is not an attribute of God, is to say that Justice is not an attribute of God, is to say that...you get the message. To say that God "gives", "bestows", or otherwise transfers his Grace, Love, Mercy, or Justice to man, is to show a complete lack of understanding of God and his Attributes or the function of those attributes.

If you want to know God, study man. God made us in His image. He gave us in ourselves, via the creation many of the same attributes that he Himself possesses. If you can give away any of your attributes, that which is true of man, then God can give away his attributes. If you cannot, God cannot!

I dare say you cannot "bestow" or give of your grace, love, mercy, justice, etc. even one iota of those attributes you possess. The very best you can do is behave in accordance with them.

Yes, they are transitive. You can keep them under wraps by refusing to behave in accordance with them, or you can live your life in accordance with them, IT's YOUR CHOICE!

 

[Frogman]

I THINK THEREFORE I AM.

If this is the yoke of Christ that the study of man can bring man to Christ, then I am lost.

Bro. Dallas

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew

You Write: If you want to know God, study man.

Nothing could be further from reality! Man is not the measure of God.

God is unknowable EXCEPT for what He reaveals about Himself. He has revealed Himself in Scripture and, "In these Last Days," Jesus.

Colossians 1:15--He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (NASB)


Hebrews 1:1-3--1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. 2 In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. 3 He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (HCSB)

It is clear that God speaks through the prophets (which pretty-much is the OT). God reveals Himself in the writing of the Law (of Moses--who is spoken of as a prophet) and in the "Prophets."

Futher, Jesus is the "Exact" representation of God.

So, it would seem that if you want to know God that you should look at the Scriptures to see what God says about Himself AND you should look at Christ and all that is written about Him (Including the Epistles of Paul, Peter, etc.).

At no time should anyone, to get a better view of God, look man-ward. This is a heresy pure and simple!

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
To say that God "gives", "bestows", or otherwise transfers his Grace, Love, Mercy, or Justice to man, is to show a complete lack of understanding of God and his Attributes or the function of those attributes.

Those poor men who only had the inspiration of God unfortunately did not have the depth of your knowledge. Over 20 times in the Scripture they talk of God giving grace. Man, if only church history was blessed with your knowledge. How much different our Bible would have been. Imagine all that error that would have been eradicated.

Seriously, Yelsew, your statement is yet again a direct denial of explicit Scripture.

If you want to know God, study man.

It's no wonder you show so very little understanding of God. It is true that we are made in his image but that image has been marred by sin. To understand God, we must go to his revelation. This is not even remotely biblical.

Of course God can't give away his attributes. He would cease to be God. Theologians put it this way: God is what his attributes are. That has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.

 

[Yelsew]

You Write: If you want to know God, study man.

Nothing could be further from reality! Man is not the measure of God.

God is unknowable EXCEPT for what He reaveals about Himself. He has revealed Himself in Scripture and, "In these Last Days," Jesus.

Man being made in the image of God is one way that God reveals himself to man!

When you have someone that you want to know a little about you, you send them an "image" of your likeness so that the other person has a mental picture of what you look like. When you want others to know you more personally, you strike up a relationship with them. When you want one to know you intimately, you marry one.

Man is a living being made in the image of God so that anyone who sees that image should be able to have some realization of what God is like. The difficulty in this is that God is Spirit. Man, too, is spirit, but is at this time limited in ability to "see" spirit. So we must have a relationship with a person to know something of their spirit. We must have a relationship with God to know something of Him. He knows us intimately . If you are pastors and do not know this, there is serious reason to question your credential.