Regeneration vs Conversion

[Benoni]

If that that is the determined will of God, then all are saved, and yet Jesus Himself stated that more will be lost than saved!

What verse are you referring? In time God will save all. All flesh will see the salvation of God. that is why God has an elect so that in the ages to come all will know him.

 

[Peter]

Why would God not call all men? He is not a respecter of person?

In His timing.
1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There are two callings that mustn't get confused. Outward and inward. Outward call is the Gospel going out indiscriminately. It is a genuine call to one and all and it is to be believed and acted upon. Man is duty bound by God to do so and to refuse this great invitation and command is high treason! This does NOT suggest ability rather it is mans responsibility. The inward call is effectual and will bring the sinner to Christ for they not only hear the Gospel but it comes with understanding, the mind has been made willing and the heart has been softened to receive the word (Matt. 13).

 

[Benoni]

There are two callings that mustn't get confused. Outward and inward. Outward call is the Gospel going out indiscriminately. It is a genuine call to one and all and it is to be believed and acted upon. Man is duty bound by God to do so and to refuse this great invitation and command is high treason! This does NOT suggest ability rather it is mans responsibility. The inward call is effectual and will bring the sinner to Christ for they not only hear the Gospel but it comes with understanding, the mind has been made willing and the heart has been softened to receive the word (Matt. 13).

High Treason? Chapter and verse please? mans responsibility?

 

[Peter]

High Treason? Chapter and verse please? mans responsibility?

Hi, yes high treason. Man is accountable for sin and will be punished for not heeding the outward call of the Gospel. It is Rationalism that causes ppl to say that the fall being total man is unable and therefore NOT responsible. Just look at Genesis account with Cain and Abel. Cain was unable. He was NOT a man of faith! Yet God says to him: "if you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" It's a rhetorical question. Called to do what he was unable to do. Jesus said the same to some who thought there must be something good they could do to enter into Heaven. He told them that there was! 100% obedience to the law! Imagine that. Wonderful! Why did He do that? Why do you question man's universal responsibility toward God and to flee from sin to Christ? Is it because you restrict the Gospel call to the elect alone and not see that there is an indiscriminate and genuine call of the Gospel for all? Now, I don't want to sound difficult (and I am not suggesting this of you) but 'chapter and verse' is not a good hermeneutic as context is totally underrated and not sufficiently considered.

 

[Benoni]

Hi, yes high treason. Man is accountable for sin and will be punished for not heeding the outward call of the Gospel. It is Rationalism that causes ppl to say that the fall being total man is unable and therefore NOT responsible. Just look at Genesis account with Cain and Abel. Cain was unable. He was NOT a man of faith! Yet God says to him: "if you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" It's a rhetorical question. Called to do what he was unable to do. Jesus said the same to some who thought there must be something good they could do to enter into Heaven. He told them that there was! 100% obedience to the law! Imagine that. Wonderful! Why did He do that? Why do you question man's universal responsibility toward God and to flee from sin to Christ? Is it because you restrict the Gospel call to the elect alone and not see that there is an indiscriminate and genuine call of the Gospel for all? Now, I don't want to sound difficult (and I am not suggesting this of you) but 'chapter and verse' is not a good hermeneutic as context is totally underrated and not sufficiently considered.

I believe in grace and you believe in condemnation. God is a just God and yes He gave us the law but he also gave us the blood of Jesus. Yes man will be punished (prune/chastise) for this is God's will but in the end all will be made alive in Christ.

You only know only of the doom and doom, the negative; the left hand of God. The cross at Calvary was a total and complete failure with your doctrines of damnation because the sin of Adam is far more powerful then the blood of Jesus with your false creeds.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.
God cause man to fall and God will restore man

 

[Peter]

I believe in grace and you believe in condemnation. God is a just God and yes He gave us the law but he also gave us the blood of Jesus. Yes man will be punished (prune/chastise) for this is God's will but in the end all will be made alive in Christ.

You only know only of the doom and doom, the negative; the left hand of God. The cross at Calvary was a total and complete failure with your doctrines of damnation because the sin of Adam is far more powerful then the blood of Jesus with your false creeds.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.
God cause man to fall and God will restore man

There is grace and there is condemnation. Both exist. There is no left hand of God. God is simultaneously just and gracious. He will show mercy on whomsoever He wills to. So let's look at John 3, all of John 3. Not just John 3:16. Read on and as you do you see that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. But heresy comes in if you stop there! Remember context. Read on. You will see, hold on, I will do a cut and paste: "
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” Did you notice v18? He who does NOT believe IS condemned already! That is why Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world. The world was already condemned. He who believes is NOT condemned! Do all believe? Have all believed? Of course not. Now what does v17b mean? Some would say that this teaches Universalism and you are apparently saying it does if I understand you correctly. My answer is context and also to say you must do justice to all of Scripture since there will literally be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all of God's enemies or do you deny the reality of Hell?

 

[Benoni]

There is grace and there is condemnation. Both exist. There is no left hand of God. God is simultaneously just and gracious. He will show mercy on whomsoever He wills to. So let's look at John 3, all of John 3. Not just John 3:16. Read on and as you do you see that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. But heresy comes in if you stop there! Remember context. Read on. You will see, hold on, I will do a cut and paste: "
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” Did you notice v18? He who does NOT believe IS condemned already! That is why Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world. The world was already condemned. He who believes is NOT condemned! Do all believe? Have all believed? Of course not. Now what does v17b mean? Some would say that this teaches Universalism and you are apparently saying it does if I understand you correctly. My answer is context and also to say you must do justice to all of Scripture since there will literally be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all of God's enemies or do you deny the reality of Hell?

Lets start with John 3:16 a verse I love when you turn the light on. The letter killeth, that is why God’s Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.

Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.


(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.


John 3:15

<9999 > should

<9999 > not

<9999 > perish,

<9999 > but


NT:9999


9999 inserted word (x);


This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.



Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,


"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.


In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.


Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered

"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.


The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.


But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."


Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be

(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator


Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.


"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,

believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,

that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world

to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."


Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!


"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).


Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Peter]

Lets start with John 3:16 a verse I love when you turn the light on. The letter killeth, that is why God’s Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.

Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.


(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.


John 3:15

<9999 > should

<9999 > not

<9999 > perish,

<9999 > but


NT:9999


9999 inserted word (x);


This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.



Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,


"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.


In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.


Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered

"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.


The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.


But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."


Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be

(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator


Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.


"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,

believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,

that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world

to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."


Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!


"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).


Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

It is only those who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit who will believe something you are not seeing. Of course God is victorious. I have asked you do you believe in the existence of Hell as taught in Scripture? Other questions but this first.

 

[TCassidy]

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.


John 3:15

<9999 > should

<9999 > not

<9999 > perish,

<9999 > but


NT:9999


9999 inserted word (x);


This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

Uh, well, actually, no.

Strong's reads:
should not G3361
perish, G622
but G235

The Greek reads:
μη G3361
αποληται G622
αλλ G235

Would you like to try again?

 

[annsni]

What verse are you referring? In time God will save all. All flesh will see the salvation of God. that is why God has an elect so that in the ages to come all will know him.

This is so unbiblical and heretical. There is no universal salvation. God will not save all - that is what the Bible tells us. Yes, all flesh will see God and will be judged for their actions and their belief or unbelief. It is only those who are washed by the blood of the Lamb who will be saved and the rest will spend an eternity without God.

 

[Benoni]

Uh, well, actually, no.

Strong's reads:
should not G3361
perish, G622
but G235

The Greek reads:
μη G3361
αποληται G622
αλλ G235

Would you like to try again?

I am sure you have a different Strong's than I cut and pasted this from. Point being you love to quote the verses that condemn the loss and ignore the verses that declare the salvation of all people.

 

[Benoni]

This is so unbiblical and heretical. There is no universal salvation. God will not save all - that is what the Bible tells us. Yes, all flesh will see God and will be judged for their actions and their belief or unbelief. It is only those who are washed by the blood of the Lamb who will be saved and the rest will spend an eternity without God.

This is not what Luke 3;6 declares that" will be judged for their actions and their belief or unbelief". But it does say if you look up the word see See: (Gk) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable
Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

See: Strong’s NT:3700

Where does it say Universal-ism is heresy in scripture?
Notice that the false prophets are. Or the false teachers. Those who teach damnation.

"But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (II Pt 2:1)



It does state heretical teachings are damning the loss. There is absolutely nothing else in the context of the verse it would be speaking of.

 

[annsni]

I am sure you have a different Strong's than I cut and pasted this from. Point being you love to quote the verses that condemn the loss and ignore the verses that declare the salvation of all people.

There is more than one Strongs? Can you link the "Strongs" you cut and pasted this from?

 

[Benoni]

There is more than one Strongs? Can you link the "Strongs" you cut and pasted this from?

Strong's has been around for a long time there are many versions of it. This is a direct cut and paste and no I do not have the version

 

[annsni]

This is not what Luke 3;6 declares that" will be judged for their actions and their belief or unbelief". But it does say if you look up the word see See: (Gk) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable
Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

See: Strong’s NT:3700

Yes - all flesh shall see - I don't see anywhere in here that all flesh will EXPERIENCE. Everyone will be judged and know that their salvation was lost should they not have been saved.

Where does it say Universal-ism is heresy in scripture?
Notice that the false prophets are. Or the false teachers. Those who teach damnation.

"But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily
shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (II Pt 2:1)



It does state heretical teachings are damning the loss. There is absolutely nothing else in the context of the verse it would be speaking of.

Huh? It says that the false teachers shall bring in damnable heresies - not that damnation is heretical. Man, you have a comprehension problem in reading Scripture!!

Please read Matthew 25:1-13 and explain Jesus' words to us.

 

[annsni]

Strong's has been around for a long time there are many versions of it. This is a direct cut and paste and no I do not have the version

There are not many versions of Strongs. I don't know where you are getting your information from but it is showing you to be very ignorant in this subject.

What is the word that the Strongs number 9999 represents? It cannot represent more than one word.

 

[Benoni]

The word hell is a mistranslation from three Greek words and one Hebrew word. Basically means the pit of the grave. Then there the Lake of Fire which God will use to punish the wicked but not forever.

 

[Benoni]

There are not many versions of Strongs. I don't know where you are getting your information from but it is showing you to be very ignorant in this subject.

What is the word that the Strongs number 9999 represents? It cannot represent more than one word.

Not ignorant I know what I read. Your whole police is based on God is going to torture trillions of people forever and ever and ever that's heresy

 

[Benoni]

Not ignorant I know what I read. Your whole belief is based on God is going to torture trillions of people forever and ever and ever that's heresy

 

[MennoSota]

Benoni, you have a twisted version of predestined universalism, which is not supported in the Scriptures.

I am sure you have a different Strong's than I cut and pasted this from. Point being you love to quote the verses that condemn the loss and ignore the verses that declare the salvation of all people.

What verse are you referring? In time God will save all. All flesh will see the salvation of God. that is why God has an elect so that in the ages to come all will know him.

I believe in grace and you believe in condemnation. God is a just God and yes He gave us the law but he also gave us the blood of Jesus. Yes man will be punished (prune/chastise) for this is God's will but in the end all will be made alive in Christ.

You only know only of the doom and doom, the negative; the left hand of God. The cross at Calvary was a total and complete failure with your doctrines of damnation because the sin of Adam is far more powerful then the blood of Jesus with your false creeds.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.
God cause man to fall and God will restore man