Regeneration w/o Living Water?

[tyndale1946]

So God gives them the living water first so they then get thirsty? Jesus said if they have the living water they will never thirst! That's the difference between the biblical view and the Calvinism view.

You seem to think there is only an eternal thirst? Is there a daily one also?... Brother Glen

 

[steaver]

You seem to think there is only an eternal thirst? Is there a daily one also?... Brother Glen

Do you have a scripture in mind?

 

[tyndale1946]

Do you have a scripture in mind?

Many! But pose this question first... Why do you come here?... Do you have a thirst?... Do you have a hunger?... For spiritual things?... Why?... Brother Glen

 

[steaver]

Many! But pose this question first... Why do you come here?... Do you have a thirst?... Do you have a hunger?... For spiritual things?... Why?... Brother Glen

Do you thirst for living water brother? Stay on topic

 

[tyndale1946]

Do you thirst for living water brother? Stay on topic

The living water is FREE!... I come everyday!... And I enjoy every drop!

I am crucified with Christ!... Never the less I live!
Present your bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely... Brother Glen

 

[convicted1]

392 views and the question remains for the Calvinist.

It has been answered, and answered well...you just don't agree with it.


EVERYTHING with you is a 'hill worth dying on' issue. EVERYTHING is a 'test of fellowship' topic with you.

Let me tell you something...

Monday we laid our precious daddy to rest. He had been ready since June 30, 1997. We had two night of church...and I mean CHURCH over him. We had some wonderful singing, preaching and even some Sisters were blessed to shout...shoot, I helped them in the shouting department. There were three preachers that preached saturday night, two sunday night, and three for his funeral. I was the only one of them that was a five-pointer. Five were maybe two and two of those preachers were probably no-pointers, being a typical five-point Arminianist. I rejoiced at their preaching because they preached Jesus as the only way to heaven.

This topic isn't something I will debate with them, not because of fear, but of love. I know their beliefs. I don't want to push mine on them. If they would ask me, I'd gladly tell them what I believe.

Would you allow a five-point Calvinist to preach over one of your family members?

 

[convicted1]

steaver,

I will try to break this down as simply as I can to show you that you have a faulty view of the ruin of man.

If man's faith is innate, inherent, comes from him, &c., then by stating it that way, man has justified himself. In Gal. 3 Paul wrote, 'And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.'(vs 8) Then we read where Paul wrote this, 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,(Gal. 5:22), and also....'For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth'(Eph. 5:9). Now, both sides state and aver that faith is necessary prior to the conversion, salvation of the soul of man. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit as I plainly showed you in those verses.

You are saying that a sinner has faith innate, already in there, passed down from Adam. Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, then how can a sinner exercise a fruit of the Spirit, when your side of the debate states that no sinner has saving faith? You are crossing yourselves in your doctrine and don't even realize it. If a man 'barhopping, shooting up drugs, raping women, robbing people, murdering people, &c.', you guys think this type of peoples have innate, inherent faith dwelling within them. How can they have faith, if it's a fruit of the Spirit. Is there more than one kind of faith?


Until you truly realize the complete, utter, and decayed ruin of mankind, you will always have a faulty doctrine...

 

[steaver]

The living water is FREE!... I come everyday!... And I enjoy every drop!

I am crucified with Christ!... Never the less I live!
Present your bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely... Brother Glen

Ok, you have to stay on topic brother. The living water is IN YOU. You do not have to come everyday and get re-saved. Jesus said the living water He shall give you shall be in you and you shall NEVER thirst!!!!! You have to understand, the subject is eternal life here, not spiritual growth.

 

[steaver]

It has been answered, and answered well...you just don't agree with it.

Your response has been refuted by scripture itself. My follow up question for you has yet to be answered by anyone.

EVERYTHING with you is a 'hill worth dying on' issue. EVERYTHING is a 'test of fellowship' topic with you.

Have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else. I have never placed anyone on ignore, neither do I post personal attacks and make fun of people. One of my good friends is a Calvinist.

Let me tell you something...

Monday we laid our precious daddy to rest. He had been ready since June 30, 1997. We had two night of church...and I mean CHURCH over him. We had some wonderful singing, preaching and even some Sisters were blessed to shout...shoot, I helped them in the shouting department. There were three preachers that preached saturday night, two sunday night, and three for his funeral. I was the only one of them that was a five-pointer. Five were maybe two and two of those preachers were probably no-pointers, being a typical five-point Arminianist. I rejoiced at their preaching because they preached Jesus as the only way to heaven.

This topic isn't something I will debate with them, not because of fear, but of love. I know their beliefs. I don't want to push mine on them. If they would ask me, I'd gladly tell them what I believe.

Would you allow a five-point Calvinist to preach over one of your family members?

Sorry for your loss brother. Yes I would allow any Calvinist to speak over one of my family members. However, I doubt they would get into theology at such a time as this. At least I would hope not.

 

[steaver]

steaver,

I will try to break this down as simply as I can to show you that you have a faulty view of the ruin of man.

If man's faith is innate, inherent, comes from him, &c., then by stating it that way, man has justified himself. In Gal. 3 Paul wrote, 'And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.'(vs 8) Then we read where Paul wrote this, 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,(Gal. 5:22), and also....'For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth'(Eph. 5:9). Now, both sides state and aver that faith is necessary prior to the conversion, salvation of the soul of man. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit as I plainly showed you in those verses.

You are saying that a sinner has faith innate, already in there, passed down from Adam. Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, then how can a sinner exercise a fruit of the Spirit, when your side of the debate states that no sinner has saving faith? You are crossing yourselves in your doctrine and don't even realize it. If a man 'barhopping, shooting up drugs, raping women, robbing people, murdering people, &c.', you guys think this type of peoples have innate, inherent faith dwelling within them. How can they have faith, if it's a fruit of the Spirit. Is there more than one kind of faith?


Until you truly realize the complete, utter, and decayed ruin of mankind, you will always have a faulty doctrine...

This is why debates remain debates. All the hopping around from topic to topic. This thread is about the living water (eternal life) Jesus said He would give to those who thirst. You still have this to answer.....

"So God gives them the living water first so they then get thirsty?"

 

[convicted1]

This is why debates remain debates. All the hopping around from topic to topic. This thread is about the living water (eternal life) Jesus said He would give to those who thirst. You still have this to answer.....

"So God gives them the living water first so they then get thirsty?"

This is on topic. The Living Water is the Spirit. Those that have the Living Water will have faith, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, & faith.


Dead people have no thirst. Go and give water to a corpse and see if they will drink it. They have no desire for it. It's the same with the unregenerate. They have zero desire for it. When God sets up that thirst, the quenching of the thirst comes immediately afterwards.

 

[PreachTony]

This is on topic. The Living Water is the Spirit. Those that have the Living Water will have faith, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, & faith.

Dead people have no thirst. Go and give water to a corpse and see if they will drink it. They have no desire for it. It's the same with the unregenerate. They have zero desire for it. When God sets up that thirst, the quenching of the thirst comes immediately afterwards.

And yet, when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well, he said:

1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4 And he must needs go through Samaria.
5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

That tenth verse makes it seem as though the woman could have asked Him, if she had known. It doesn't imply that she lacked the ability, merely the knowledge.

 

[Bro. James]

A short kibbitz: see John 6:44. Most all English translations say the same thing--almost verbatim. Irresistible call and eternal security all in one verse. We have no merit of ourselves. Praise the Lord.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Iconoclast]

And yet, when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well, he said:

That tenth verse makes it seem as though the woman could have asked Him, if she had known. It doesn't imply that she lacked the ability, merely the knowledge.

The unsaved do lack the ability to form correct views of God and His word, since the fall. That is why apart from the Spirit effectually calling them they will never come in and of themselves...that is the point.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I "could have " played major league baseball if I "could" have hit 790 baseballs over the fence in a ten year period. I could have jumped over the atlantic ocean to Italy if it were not for gravity.....see how it works PT.....

 

[PreachTony]

The unsaved do lack the ability to form correct views of God and His word, since the fall. That is why apart from the Spirit effectually calling them they will never come in and of themselves...that is the point.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'd like to drag up some Old Testament scripture, because I feel there is an applicable verse for us here:

9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Here we have Moses delivering a word from the Lord to the people of Israel. He plainly tells them that the commandment being delivered unto them is "not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Other translation use the phrase "out of reach." So apparently these Israelites could attain unto the commandment. They could fulfill it, seeing as it was not hidden, nor far off. And we're told what was set before them was "life and good" and "death and evil." The more I read and study on this scripture, the more I'm convinced Moses was telling them "keep the commandment and live, or break the commandment and die." Perhaps not immediately, but that would be the outcome, what with the wages of sin being death and all that.

Why would Moses tell these folks that the commandment was not hidden, out of reach, or far off, and that they had life and death laid before them, if they were incapable from the start of forming a correct view?

I "could have " played major league baseball if I "could" have hit 790 baseballs over the fence in a ten year period. I could have jumped over the atlantic ocean to Italy if it were not for gravity.....see how it works PT.....

I do see how it works. I also see how you are using outlandish situations as though they stands as proof against my point of view.

 

[Reformed]

I'd like to drag up some Old Testament scripture, because I feel there is an applicable verse for us here:

Here we have Moses delivering a word from the Lord to the people of Israel. He plainly tells them that the commandment being delivered unto them is "not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Other translation use the phrase "out of reach." So apparently these Israelites could attain unto the commandment. They could fulfill it, seeing as it was not hidden, nor far off. And we're told what was set before them was "life and good" and "death and evil." The more I read and study on this scripture, the more I'm convinced Moses was telling them "keep the commandment and live, or break the commandment and die." Perhaps not immediately, but that would be the outcome, what with the wages of sin being death and all that.

Why would Moses tell these folks that the commandment was not hidden, out of reach, or far off, and that they had life and death laid before them, if they were incapable from the start of forming a correct view?


I do see how it works. I also see how you are using outlandish situations as though they stands as proof against my point of view.

The Mosaic Law was unlike the law written on the heart of the Elect (Jer. 31:33). It was possible for Jews living in covenant Israel to obey the law outwardly. This does not mean they believed in faith, as did Abraham (Gen. 15:6).

 

[steaver]

This is on topic. The Living Water is the Spirit. Those that have the Living Water will have faith, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, & faith.

AMEN! Spot on brother!

When God sets up that thirst, the quenching of the thirst comes immediately afterwards

That sure sounds good for Calvinism's cause, however, it is not what Jesus said. Jesus said anyone who thirst may come and be given "living water". And what did Jesus say would happen afterwards? They shall NEVER thirst. Thus Calvinism's theology of the giving of living water causing the thirst is quite backwards, and quite illogical even, one could even say it is just plain dumb. If God gave the living water first their would be no more thirst. It's pretty simple, but Calvinism needs it to be not as Jesus said in order to save the ism.

Really folks, let's be serious. One is not given water so they can become thirsty!!!!! Good grief......

 

[Iconoclast]

=PreachTony;
I do see how it works. I also see how you are using outlandish situations as though they stands as proof against my point of view.[/QUOTE]



My examples have more of a chance of taking place than your ideas about dead sinners bringing themself to life. Now that is outlandish.....

 

[steaver]

My examples have more of a chance of taking place than your ideas about dead sinners bringing themself to life. Now that is outlandish.....

Here is one for you brother, do you have any young children or grandchildren? Pour a glass of water and offer it to one of them, and say, drink this glass of water so you can get thirsty. See if they get it. :laugh:

 

[Robert William]

The question is, can a person be regenerated and at the same time NOT have the living water Jesus spoke of?

This really is crystal clear, no need for jumping through hoops to get to an interpretation. Jesus clearly expresses the Spirit's living water attribute is what gives eternal life (John chapters 3&4) This is Christ becoming one with you by the Spirit, Christ in you, regeneration. You certainly would not declare that one can be regenerated and at the same time not have the living water Jesus speaks of, would you? Of course not. Well, I would hope not, but I will not speak for you.

Now John is very specific...

John 7:37 - "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". This refers back to chapter 4 and the conversation Jesus had with the woman at the well, as well as Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus earlier.

John 7:38 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Jesus said to the woman at the well, "If thou knewest the gift of God (what is the Gift of God? Romans 6:23 - "...the gift of God is eternal life"), and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink (Jesus Christ is that eternal life giving Gift); thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water (the vehicle by which this Gift is administered is by the Holy Spirit's living water).

John 7:39 - "(But this [living water] spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive [they had not received it as of yet]: [Why?] for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

There simply is no way around this fact that regeneration is a post glorification implementation.....the Spirit has always been with man having many different works, but never was the Spirit's regenerating power of living water given to a person before the glorification of Jesus Christ. This is certainly crystal clear....

Your putting the cart before the horse, regeneration is to revive a lost spiritually dead sheep.