Regeneration

[Van]

If they do not happen simultaneously, there is a temporal (time) gap. I see no need for that, neither scriptural nor logically

just like there is no time gap between regeneration and faith, nor between faith and justification

You can continue to deny the obvious, scripture says we were "in Him" before we were sealed in Him.
The question you must ask is why not accept the sequence given in scripture?

Here is one for you, since you were chosen for salvation through faith, your faith came before your election, which means before you were put in Christ and made alive (regeneration.)

 

[Van]

there is no “if”. EVERYONE who puts faith in Christ is saved.

question. Does faith and justification happen instantantaneoslyat the same time?

how about regeneration and faith?

More denial of the obvious, the second and third soil of Matthew 13 were not saved, neither the Matthew 7 folks who had professed "Lord, Lord."

No, our faith in Christ which God credits as righteousness provides the basis of God putting us spiritually in Christ, and once in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.

 

[glad4mercy]

More denial of the obvious, the second and third soil of Matthew 13 were not saved, neither the Matthew 7 folks who had professed "Lord, Lord."

No, our faith in Christ which God credits as righteousness provides the basis of God putting us spiritually in Christ, and once in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.

First of all, what does the parable of soils and "Lord, Lord" passage have to do with ordo salutus.

Secondly, You cannot be baptized by the Spirit into Christ without being regenerated.

 

[Van]

First of all, what does the parable of soils and "Lord, Lord" passage have to do with ordo salutus.

Secondly, You cannot be baptized by the Spirit into Christ without being regenerated.

I fear you have decided to pretend you cannot understand truth.

1) Our faith in Christ in response to the gospel, happens before God credits that faith as righteousness or not. Then if God does not credit the faith, the person is not saved, such as the second and third soils of Matthew 13, or the folks who professed Lord Lord in Matthew 7. Therefore not "everyone who puts faith in Christ is saved."

2) You cannot be baptized by the Spirit into Christ without subsequently being regenerated.

 

[glad4mercy]

I fear you have decided to pretend you cannot understand truth.

1) Our faith in Christ in response to the gospel, happens before God credits that faith as righteousness or not. Then if God does not credit the faith, the person is not saved, such as the second and third soils of Matthew 13, or the folks who professed Lord Lord in Matthew 7. Therefore not "everyone who puts faith in Christ is saved."

2) You cannot be baptized by the Spirit into Christ without subsequently being regenerated.

Second paragraph- I do not believe a person is baptized into Christ BEFORE being regenerated.

First paragraph- God saves all who believe.

 

[Van]

Second paragraph- I do not believe a person is baptized into Christ BEFORE being regenerated.

First paragraph- God saves all who believe.

And to go over this once again:

God does not save all who profess belief. God only saves those whose faith He and He alone credits as righteousness. We have the second and third soils who professed belief, but were not saved, and the Lord Lord folks of Matthew 7. For you to believe they were saved is bogus.

Where are we when we were made alive, regenerated? I have pointed this out before. We were made alive "together with Christ." Scripture does not read, we were made alive before we were together with Christ.

Ask yourself this: Why did we undergo the circumcision of Christ if we had undergone the washing of regeneration before we were placed in Christ? No answer will be forthcoming. Where do we undergo the circumcision of Christ? In Him!
Colossians 2:11 NASB
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

 

[glad4mercy]

And to go over this once again:

God does not save all who profess belief. God only saves those whose faith He and He alone credits as righteousness. We have the second and third soils who professed belief, but were not saved, and the Lord Lord folks of Matthew 7. For you to believe they were saved is bogus.

Where are we when we were made alive, regenerated? I have pointed this out before. We were made alive "together with Christ." Scripture does not read, we were made alive before we were together with Christ.

Ask yourself this: Why did we undergo the circumcision of Christ if we had undergone the washing of regeneration before we were placed in Christ? No answer will be

forthcoming. Where do we undergo the circumcision of Christ? In Him!
Colossians 2:11 NASB
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Made alive together with Christ means that we have been made alive together by means of our identification with Christ in His resurrection. This happens the moment we believe.

your starting point is wrong. God saves everyone who believes. John 3:36, Romans 3:22, Romans 10:11, Romans 10:13,

everyone who believes has eternal life. John 3:36

Imputes righteousness unto all and upon all who believe. Romans 3:22

No one who believes in Him will be ashamed. Romans 10:11

whoever (everyone) who calls on His Mame will be saved

Lastly, where does it say faith or believe in regards to the two souls you mention?

 

[Van]

Made alive together with Christ means that we have been made alive together by means of our identification with Christ in His resurrection. This happens the moment we believe.
SNIP
whoever (everyone) who calls on His Mame will be saved
Lastly, where does it say faith or believe in regards to the two souls you mention?

1) Soil #2 and Soil #3 believed but were not "made alive." The "Lord, Lord" folks of Matthew 7 were never 'together with Christ" when they professed belief, Christ said I never knew you.

2) Whoever calls on His name (meaning professes trust and devotion) will be saved provided God credits that faith as righteousness.

You continue to ignore Romans 4:4-5, and Romans 4:23-24. You claim automatic salvation based on the action of people, which is false doctrine.

Please provide the quote where I mentioned "two souls." Too vague a reference for me to back track.

Here is another text showing that professing faith is not what accomplishes salvation, it is the Lord who discerns whether the person has gone "all in" or reserved some worldly treasure:
Mar 7:6
And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

 

[glad4mercy]

1) Soil #2 and Soil #3 believed but were not "made alive." The "Lord, Lord" folks of Matthew 7 were never 'together with Christ" when they professed belief, Christ said I never knew you.

2) Whoever calls on His name (meaning professes trust and devotion) will be saved provided God credits that faith as righteousness.

You continue to ignore Romans 4:4-5, and Romans 4:23-24. You claim automatic salvation based on the action of people, which is false doctrine.

Please provide the quote where I mentioned "two souls." Too vague a reference for me to back track.

Here is another text showing that professing faith is not what accomplishes salvation, it is the Lord who discerns whether the person has gone "all in" or reserved some worldly treasure:
Mar 7:6
And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

two souls was a typo. I meant two SOILS. Go back and read parable of sower. It never uses the word pisteuo or believe with the second and third soils.

I do not ignore Romans 4:4-5 and 4:23-24. We are saved and declared righteous by faith, which is granted us by God

it’s funny that you say I ignore those two passages when the first says that we are justified by faith apart from works, and the second says that if we believe, God WILL impute righteousness to us. That is an IMMUTABLE PROMISE to all who exercise the GIFT of faith.

Lastly, faith is trust from the heart, not from the mouth, so your last objection does not apply to what I have said

 

[Van]

two souls was a typo. I meant two SOILS. Go back and read parable of sower. It never uses the word pisteuo or believe with the second and third soils.

I do not ignore Romans 4:4-5 and 4:23-24. We are saved and declared righteous by faith, which is granted us by God

it’s funny that you say I ignore those two passages when the first says that we are justified by faith apart from works, and the second says that if we believe, God WILL impute righteousness to us. That is an IMMUTABLE PROMISE to all who exercise the GIFT of faith.

Lastly, faith is trust from the heart, not from the mouth, so your last objection does not apply to what I have said

1) Why deny the obvious, soil #2 "received the gospel with joy." That indicates acceptance of the good news, which requires faith in Christ. Ditto for soil #3.

2. Yes you said whoever believes will be saved, and left out whosoever faith God credits as righteousness will be saved.,

3. No verse says or suggests if we believe in our own eyes, God will impute righteousness to us. The folks of Matthew 7 believed in their own eyes.

4. The gift of faith is a fiction, scripture teaches God credits our faith, not His instilled faith.

5. The questionable translation of justified as "declared righteous" is a topic for another thread.

Returning to topic, since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our faith, if credited by God as righteousness, provides the basis of our election for salvation. Therefore we were individually chosen, and placed spiritually in Christ before we underwent the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ, which occur "In Him" and not before being placed in Him.

 

[Dave G]

1) Why deny the obvious, soil #2 "received the gospel with joy." That indicates acceptance of the good news, which requires faith in Christ. Ditto for soil #3.

Then why do they not bear spiritual fruit, if they supposedly had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and exhibited the godly fruit of faith ( Galatians 5:22-23 )?
One cannot have true faith without the Spirit being present in them.

To me, you're traveling down the road to loss of salvation, saying that 3 of the 4 "soils" actually believed, from the heart, instead of there being true faith and false faith...true belief and false belief.

Do you believe the Bible teaches loss of salvation, Van?

 

[Dave G]

Returning to topic, since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our faith, if credited by God as righteousness, provides the basis of our election for salvation.

The basis for election is this:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" ( Ephesians 1:3-9 ).

The believer's faith does not obligate God to save anyone...
He obligates Himself by stating that all who have faith are ( and will be ) saved.

He does that according to His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 ), having mercy and compassion on whom He will ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
Faith does not lead to salvation...it is the evidence of it ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

The believer's faith, that which was given to them as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) purely of God's own making ( Hebrews 12:2 ), is credited as righteousness...but it is not the basis of the believer's election.
If this were true, then something a man has or performs, can then be used to gain God's favor.

But eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), Van...not a reward.
For it to truly be a gift, one cannot do something or have something to earn it.

God accepts no man's person...our efforts will never result in gaining God's favor, because all our works are as filthy rags.
Therefore, true faith must also be a gift given by God.

 

[glad4mercy]

1) Why deny the obvious, soil #2 "received the gospel with joy." That indicates acceptance of the good news, which requires faith in Christ. Ditto for soil #3.

Acceptance and faith are not the same thing...

 

[glad4mercy]

1) Why deny the obvious, soil #2 "received the gospel with joy." That indicates acceptance of the good news, which requires faith in Christ. Ditto for soil #3.

2. Yes you said whoever believes will be saved, and left out whosoever faith God credits as righteousness will be saved.,

3. No verse says or suggests if we believe in our own eyes, God will impute righteousness to us. The folks of Matthew 7 believed in their own eyes.

4. The gift of faith is a fiction, scripture teaches God credits our faith, not His instilled faith.

5. The questionable translation of justified as "declared righteous" is a topic for another thread.

Returning to topic, since we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, our faith, if credited by God as righteousness, provides the basis of our election for salvation. Therefore we were individually chosen, and placed spiritually in Christ before we underwent the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ, which occur "In Him" and not before being placed in Him.

1. Why deny the obvious, soil #2 "received the gospel with joy." That indicates acceptance of the good news, which requires faith in Christ. Ditto for soil #3.

Receiving is not the same as faith. People can have emotional experiences as the result of hearing the Gospel, and receive the Word with joy, but not be converted. Conversion is not just emotional and/or intellectual.

2. Yes you said whoever believes will be saved, and left out whosoever faith God credits as righteousness will be saved.,

God credits righteousness to everyone who believes.

3. No verse says or suggests if we believe in our own eyes, God will impute righteousness to us. The folks of Matthew 7 believed in their own eyes.

The Bible defines faith and describes the effects of faith. We go by what the Bible says, not our eyes.

4. The gift of faith is a fiction, scripture teaches God credits our faith, not His instilled faith.

So you believe that faith is the gift we give to God and salvation is the gift He gives us? I don't believe salvation is a trade off. JESUS IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH, AND GOD IS THE ONE WHO BOTH BEGINS AND COMPLETES THE GOOD WORK IN US.

5. The questionable translation of justified as "declared righteous" is a topic for another thread.

"declare" would merely be a judicial imputation. Declare means to announce something clearly and publically. God has clearly and publically declared IN THE SCRIPTURES that all who believe are counted as righteous, ie righteousness is imputed to them.

 

[Van]

Acceptance and faith are not the same thing...

Utterly false. Acceptance of the gospel REQUIRES faith in Christ. Otherwise it is a rejection. And we are talking about professing faith, not conversion that occurs after He credits that faith as righteousness. Soil #2 professed faith (when he received the gospel with joy) but was not saved, converted, born anew, etc. Therefore your assertion that everyone who professes belief is saved is false. Only those whose faith is credited by God as righteousness are saved.

I see you said, "God credits righteousness to everyone who believes." But you avoided saying whether the determination of whether a person believes is the individual or God. Hard to have a discussion if specificity is lacking.

I see you continued to avoid the issue of who decides whether a person believes yet again in #3.

Then you continued to claim God does not credit our faith as righteousness. Wholesale rejection of scripture.

Lastly, totally avoiding the text under discuss, you make yet another assertion without any supporting scripture. Anytime you see "declared righteous" in your version (or versions) note that the same word is translated "justified" and does not include the mechanism God uses to render a sinner "justified." Your choice actually simply adds to scripture. An accurate translation choice could be "made righteous" because that does not say how God achieved the end result. It does not attempt to nullify the washing of regeneration or the circumcision of Christ.

 

[glad4mercy]

Utterly false. Acceptance of the gospel REQUIRES faith in Christ. Otherwise it is a rejection. And we are talking about professing faith, not conversion that occurs after He credits that faith as righteousness. Soil #2 professed faith (when he received the gospel with joy) but was not saved, converted, born anew, etc. Therefore your assertion that everyone who professes belief is saved is false. Only those whose faith is credited by God as righteousness are saved.

I see you said, "God credits righteousness to everyone who believes." But you avoided saying whether the determination of whether a person believes is the individual or God. Hard to have a discussion if specificity is lacking.

I see you continued to avoid the issue of who decides whether a person believes yet again in #3.

Then you continued to claim God does not credit our faith as righteousness. Wholesale rejection of scripture.

Lastly, totally avoiding the text under discuss, you make yet another assertion without any supporting scripture. Anytime you see "declared righteous" in your version (or versions) note that the same word is translated "justified" and does not include the mechanism God uses to render a sinner "justified." Your choice actually simply adds to scripture. An accurate translation choice could be "made righteous" because that does not say how God achieved the end result. It does not attempt to nullify the washing of regeneration or the circumcision of Christ.

1. where did I deny that God credits faith as righteousness.

2. Faith is not just an emotional response or an intellectual decision. It is powerful and transformative.

3. Of it was all left up to us, believing, persevering, etc. we’d be be toast

 

[Jeremiah 6:16]

1. where did I deny that God credits faith as righteousness.

2. Faith is not just an emotional response or an intellectual decision. It is powerful and transformative.

3. Of it was all left up to us, believing, persevering, etc. we’d be be toast[/QUOTE

1. where did I deny that God credits faith as righteousness.

2. Faith is not just an emotional response or an intellectual decision. It is powerful and transformative.

3. Of it was all left up to us, believing, persevering, etc. we’d be be toast

I know this post is a little old, but very interesting topic. Is not regeneration the same as the new birth "from above" I've noticed some apparently don't think so.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

Early in my Christian walk, I understood being drawn to Jesus by the Father as the Grace of God preceding out faith, and then regeneration was the New Birth that logically, not temporally followed our faith. But I understood my faith and my regeration as having occurred similtaneously.

So hearing, drawn, followed by regeneration/faith.

Through listening to and reading people of different persuasions, including Calvinists, and MORE importantly, through growth in reading the scriptures, I came to understand regeneration better.

I now understand regeneration to be the monergistic act of God in which the spiritually dead believer is raised to life by the Power of God ALONE by the means or agency of faith through hearing the Word of God.

Is this what Calvinism teaches?

Secondly, how do Calvinists differentiate between "drawing" and "regeneration"?

I was on another message board recently, and I was attacked rigorously and abusively for my view on regeneration and preservation/perserverance by OSAS Arminians, who believed in preservation, but rejected perserverance of the saints, which I hold.

Regeneration precedes faith so if a person believes it’s because regeneration has already taken place.


Cornelius is a prime example that faith and regeneration do not happen simultaneously.


Cornelius showed attributes of a child of God before Peter came with the Gospel message.

 

[kyredneck]

Cornelius is a prime example that faith and regeneration do not happen simultaneously.

We're given several examples, for those who have an eye for them.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

Another one is John The Baptist!

He’s regeneration took place in his mother’s womb.