Regeneration

[Van]

When are believers saved? When they believe, or when God puts them spiritually in Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness?

When are we made alive, before God puts us in Christ, or when we are together with Christ?

My reading of scripture says we are saved when God puts us in Christ after crediting our faith as righteousness. When we are put in Christ, then we are made alive, regenerated.

If we are separated from Christ, we are dead in our trespasses and sins, and therefore not spiritually alive.

 

[AresMan]

When are believers saved? When they believe, or when God puts them spiritually in Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness?

When are we made alive, before God puts us in Christ, or when we are together with Christ?

My reading of scripture says we are saved when God puts us in Christ after crediting our faith as righteousness. When we are put in Christ, then we are made alive, regenerated.

If we are separated from Christ, we are dead in our trespasses and sins, and therefore not spiritually alive.

Why should the above represent different when's?

 

[percho]

Or maybe,

For the purpose of God the recipients of the Holy Spirit are set apart unto salvation at the appearing of Jesus and his kingdom.

1 Peter 1:4,5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, (grace) reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God (the gift of the Holy Spirit) through faith (of Jesus Christ) unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (at his appearing and his kingdom)

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto (for) obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, (to the recipients thereof) which ye now see and hear.

We are given the Spirit through Christ, meaning first to him then to us.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why should the above represent different when's?

Aren't they both true, in that God enables us to receive the Lord jesus, and we immediatly respond by faith being place in christ?

 

[Van]

Why should the above represent different when's?

So when we believe God credits our faith as righteousness and puts us in Christ.

 

[Van]

Aren't they both true, in that God enables us to receive the Lord jesus, and we immediatly respond by faith being place in christ?

So the second soil of Matthew 13, you know the one that fell away and therefore was never saved, God enabled him with irresistible grace to receive the Lord Jesus, and was immediately placed in Christ? LOL

 

[Van]

1 Peter 1:4,5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, (grace) reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God (the gift of the Holy Spirit) through faith (of Jesus Christ) unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (at his appearing and his kingdom)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the inheritance is not salvation, but our eternal life with God. We are saved already, but we have not been raised in glorified bodies to dwell eventually in our heavenly abode.

So after we are saved, our faith is protected by the power of God, keeping us for our inheritance.

 

[Van]

It is only when God puts us spiritually in Christ, not with Christ, or beside Christ, or under Christ, that we are regenerated spiritually, going from being spiritually dead, separated from Christ, to being made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is only when God puts us spiritually in Christ, not with Christ, or beside Christ, or under Christ, that we are regenerated spiritually, going from being spiritually dead, separated from Christ, to being made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

easier to just take the biblical model, as the Lord saves us by/thru His sovereign Will, and that he supplies ALL necessary unto those He has chosen to save, such as repentamce/faith etc!

 

[Van]

When we are regenerated we are born anew. When we are born anew we are regenerated. Thus being regenerated and being born anew refers to the same spiritual occurrence,

 

[Yeshua1]

When we are regenerated we are born anew. When we are born anew we are regenerated. Thus being regenerated and being born anew refers to the same spiritual occurrence,

yes, as BOTh aspects are provided to us thru the Lord who has chosen and elected us unto life in christ!

 

[Van]

Pitchback

easier to just take the biblical model, as the Lord saves us by/thru His sovereign Will, and that he supplies ALL necessary unto those He has chosen to save, such as repentamce/faith etc!

I provided the biblical model, citing the verse that says we are made alive together with Christ. When God puts us in Christ, that is by His sovereign will. When God makes us alive in Christ, that is by His sovereign will. When God causes us to be born anew in Christ, that is by His sovereign will.

But the biblical model (John 1:12-13) also says after we believe we are given the right to become children of God, and thus we are born anew as children of God after we believe, so faith before regeneration.

 

[Winman]

Yes, it is impossible to be regenerated until we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Unless the Spirit of God dwells IN you, you do not belong to Christ. You are not born again. And numerous scriptures such as Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 19:2, and Acts 2:38 all teach that we do not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until AFTER we believe.

In addition to this, no man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins, and all scripture teaches we are justified and forgiven our sins AFTER we believe. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

What Calvinists call regeneration is in reality conviction and revelation. The scriptures teach a natural man can be "enlightened" to understand the gospel, and even convicted to the point of repentance and yet fall away in unbelief. (Heb 6:4-7).

Calvinism teaches a man is regenerated before he believes, they teach a man is regenerated before he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Calvinism teaches a man is made alive without Christ and before believing on Christ. This is serious error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, it is impossible to be regenerated until we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Unless the Spirit of God dwells IN you, you do not belong to Christ. You are not born again. And numerous scriptures such as Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 19:2, and Acts 2:38 all teach that we do not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until AFTER we believe.

In addition to this, no man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins, and all scripture teaches we are justified and forgiven our sins AFTER we believe. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

What Calvinists call regeneration is in reality conviction and revelation. The scriptures teach a natural man can be "enlightened" to understand the gospel, and even convicted to the point of repentance and yet fall away in unbelief. (Heb 6:4-7).

Calvinism teaches a man is regenerated before he believes, they teach a man is regenerated before he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Calvinism teaches a man is made alive without Christ and before believing on Christ. This is serious error.

actually, most calvinist would hold that BOTH happen at the same moment from our point of view, as the Lord grants the new heart on hisside, and we place faith in Jesus 2 sides of the same coin!

Those such as Strong and Spurgeon held to same time, usually extreme Hyper cals hold to regeneration proceeding faith to a large time differential!

 

[Winman]

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actually, most calvinist would hold that BOTH happen at the same moment from our point of view, as the Lord grants the new heart on hisside, and we place faith in Jesus 2 sides of the same coin!

Those such as Strong and Spurgeon held to same time, usually extreme Hyper cals hold to regeneration proceeding faith to a large time differential!

It doesn't matter if you believe they happen at the same time, the scriptures say you do not receive the Spirit until you first believe. In fact, many in the NT did not receive the Spirit until days after they believed.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul's question in verse 2 shows that he believed a person receives the Holy Spirit AFTER (since) they believed. And in fact we see these disciples did not receive the Spirit until after they had believed on Jesus and been baptized in his name.

But you are correct, some here believe a person can be regenerated for a long time, possibly years before they actually believe on Jesus. Luke recently said he believes a person can be regenerated for a LONG TIME before he is saved. He didn't explain how long this time was or what he meant by being saved.

Until you believe on Jesus you are DEAD IN SINS. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until AFTER you believe.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You can believe whatever you want, but the scriptures say a man receives the Spirit AFTER he believes, not at the same time.

 

[AresMan]

When we are regenerated we are born anew. When we are born anew we are regenerated. Thus being regenerated and being born anew refers to the same spiritual occurrence,

Correct. :thumbsup:

Both words are rather similar in meaning, too.

 

[Yeshua1]

Correct. :thumbsup:

Both words are rather similar in meaning, too.

diffeernce would be in the ultimate sense, is it God iniated or do we iniate it?

 

[Van]

Yet again Yeshuha1 postulates the opposite of scripture. We are born not my our will but by God's will. Hence, God draws us through the gospel, we embrace the gospel, God either credits our faith, or not, depending if we believe fully from the heart, but if God does credit our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5, He puts us spiritually in Christ, where we are regenerated, made alive, born anew, 1 Cor. 1:30 based on our faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The act of God choosing to put us in Christ is our individual election for salvation.

 

[percho]

Yes, it is impossible to be regenerated until we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Unless the Spirit of God dwells IN you, you do not belong to Christ. You are not born again. And numerous scriptures such as Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 19:2, and Acts 2:38 all teach that we do not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until AFTER we believe.

In addition to this, no man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins, and all scripture teaches we are justified and forgiven our sins AFTER we believe. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

What Calvinists call regeneration is in reality conviction and revelation. The scriptures teach a natural man can be "enlightened" to understand the gospel, and even convicted to the point of repentance and yet fall away in unbelief. (Heb 6:4-7).

Calvinism teaches a man is regenerated before he believes, they teach a man is regenerated before he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Calvinism teaches a man is made alive without Christ and before believing on Christ. This is serious error.

Methinks I agree, after all we are called from darkness into light and it is the Holy Spirit that translates one from one to the other.

Let me ask this, As generation is a process that begins with the ovum being fertilized and ends in birth, why would regeneration not be a process?
Does not the Holy Spirit put us in the church called Jerusalem above, the mother of us all, also known as Zion which is stated in Isaiah 66 as giving birth to a nation (the kingdom of God) in one day?

Would that not make more clear a verse like Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[Van]

How long does regeneration take. Not long, think twinkling of an eye.

Unless you think our spiritual regeneration would take longer than our physical regeneration.

Spiritually we are baptized into Christ's death, then arise a new creation. So regeneration appears to occur in less than a New York minute.