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Religious Discrimination and Scientific Racism.

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Hmmm - is it your contention that merely by stating the neandertals were not physically interbreeding with homo sapiens that this is an act of racial discrimination?

What if their race never fell and they were removed so as to be able to procede uncontaminated in another abode, while the sons of Adam and daughters of Eve lurched on towards their own dark destiny?
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
[QB] Hmmm - is it your contention that merely by stating the neandertals were not physically interbreeding with homo sapiens that this is an act of racial discrimination?
Yes, but not on your part by simply posting what neo-Darwinist theorists have previously published and proclaimed in order to subsume all previous racial groups in Asia, the Middle East and Europe under the African Eve racial theory of 'species' extinction and replacement with genetically superior populations.

After the Ice Age was over, the reasons for Neanderthal isolation and morphology also melted away, and subsequent warmer conditions allowed for more integration and interbreeding with other early migratory tribes throughout Europe and the Near/Middle East. Being a small isolated population to begin with, the unique morphological features which they aquired during the Ice Age were modified through genetic recombination with early/archaic Homo sapiens throughout the region.

What if their race never fell and they were removed so as to be able to procede uncontaminated in another abode, while the sons of Adam and daughters of Eve lurched on towards their own dark destiny?
One would first have to concoct a racist theory in order to predict the outcome of that hypothesis.
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Undoubtedly the angels - beings such as Gabriel and Michael - are not homo sapiens, not genetically related to Adam and Eve. Is it racist to point this out, and if not, why is saying the same thing about Neandertals racist?
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Undoubtedly the angels - beings such as Gabriel and Michael - are not homo sapiens, not genetically related to Adam and Eve. Is it racist to point this out, and if not, why is saying the same thing about Neandertals racist?
Since Neanderthals, being fully human, left physical evidence of their humanity for us to discover and include in the human fossil record, as Lubenow so expertly documents for us, any theories that they were a different 'species' than ourselves are a form of scientific racism based on neo-Darwinist claims that they were less than human.
 

The Galatian

Active Member
Race, in humans, is just a cultural construct. Which is not to say they aren't real; they just vary depending on which culture you are in.

They have no physical or genetic basis.
 

Daisy

New Member
The evolutionary scientists and paleoanthropoligists don't claim that the Neanderthals are a separate race; you don't claim they are a separate race. So how can a theory that makes no claims of race be racist?
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by The Galatian:
Race, in humans, is just a cultural construct. Which is not to say they aren't real; they just vary depending on which culture you are in.

They have no physical or genetic basis.
Physical observations though, are usually the premise and basis for observing racial differences, even though some scientists may not like to say so.

Of course, they have no problem observing the morphological differences between various specimens of racial groups in the fossil record and labeling them a 'different and separate species.'
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Daisy:
The evolutionary scientists and paleoanthropoligists don't claim that the Neanderthals are a separate race; you don't claim they are a separate race. So how can a theory that makes no claims of race be racist?
By classifying and labeling racial groups in the human fossil record as 'different and separate species,' neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution in and out of Africa are intrinsically, inherently and implicitly racist.
 

Daisy

New Member
Originally posted by jcrawford:
By classifying and labeling racial groups in the human fossil record as 'different and separate species,' neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution in and out of Africa are intrinsically, inherently and implicitly racist.
You & Lub are the only ones claiming that the fossils represent a separate racial group even though you claim there are no separate racial groups.
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Daisy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jcrawford:
By classifying and labeling racial groups in the human fossil record as 'different and separate species,' neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution in and out of Africa are intrinsically, inherently and implicitly racist.
You & Lub are the only ones claiming that the fossils represent a separate racial group even though you claim there are no separate racial groups. </font>[/QUOTE]Since racial groups are patently obvious and evident to all, we just don't call any racial groups 'different and separate' races or species like some scientists do.

Equally obvious is the apparent fact that human fossils excavated from various localities in Africa, Eurasia, the Middle East or elsewhere, must of necessity have belonged to various individuals who were members of racial groups in different parts of the world in their own time.
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Lessee now. You state racial groups are "patently obvious and evident" and still claim "we just don't call any racial groups different and seperate races".

To me this just looks like muddled thinking.
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Lessee now. You state racial groups are "patently obvious and evident" and still claim "we just don't call any racial groups different and seperate races".

To me this just looks like muddled thinking.
Not really, since scientifically classifying people by race is not advisable, if not impossible, but racial groups being self-recognized are politically identifiable.
 

Daisy

New Member
Originally posted by jcrawford:
Not really, since scientifically classifying people by race is not advisable, if not impossible, but racial groups being self-recognized are politically identifiable.
I see, you want to be politically identified as a Neanderthal...kind of like the cavemen of the Geico commercial.

Politically, you should be able to accomplish that, at least in the colloquial sense of "Neanderthal". Scientifically, you'd have to have a DNA match. If you got that, you'd win your argument.
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Daisy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jcrawford:
Not really, since scientifically classifying people by race is not advisable, if not impossible, but racial groups being self-recognized are politically identifiable.
I see, you want to be politically identified as a Neanderthal...kind of like the cavemen of the Geico commercial.

Politically, you should be able to accomplish that, at least in the colloquial sense of "Neanderthal". Scientifically, you'd have to have a DNA match. If you got that, you'd win your argument.
</font>[/QUOTE]Since no DNA research has been done on early/archaic Homo sapiens and erectus fossils in Europe, and they have all been classified as Neanderthals now, despite their great diversity in form, there is no genetic evidence against European fossil ancestry even if a few Homo sapiens managed to migrate out of Africa after the Ice Age and blend in with local human population.

The only reason that neo-Darwinists favor the African Eve model is because they are desperate to relate and link people of Eurasian and Middle Eastern descent to a tribe of Africans which neo-Darwinists claim originated from ancestors of African monkeys and apes, since if Africans didn't evolve from non-humans, no other racial group can be shown to have either.

Theorizing that the first people on earth (Africans) originated from non-human ancestors of African monkeys and apes is based on what evidence? The human fossil record shows no evidence in support of such racist beliefs.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
"Theorizing that the first people on earth (Africans) originated from non-human ancestors of African monkeys and apes is based on what evidence? The human fossil record shows no evidence in support of such racist beliefs."

Since you contend that the bones are a matter of contention, then let's stick with other evidence. I pick genetics.

Now we have a whole thread here

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/66/19.html

where I present the genetic evidence that we share a common ancestry with the other apes.

Now I know that you have see nthe thread because you popped in several times with such stinging zingers as "Genetic BALONEY!"

Now what you never actually did was give us a competing theory.

That thread presents data from dozens and dozens of different genes and other types of genetic material. When you look at the distribution of the material and the mutations within that material, you consistently get essentially the same set of phylogenic trees.

One reference talks about retroviral DNA inserts. The author makes the statement that because the insertion of such segments is completely random, that if two species share the same insert and the same location they MUST be related through common ancestry.

Humans share many such insertions with the other apes. In addition, the pattern of mutations in the inserts matches all of the other phylogenic trees.

Now you can spout off all of the nonsense phrases that you want. You can call names. You can refer us back to Lub and his excellent book which seems to have no actual claims or references that you can share with us. (I have this mental image of Lub repeating the word "racist" for 400 pages.)

But what you nor any other YEer or IDer can do is to give us some other reason than common descent why we should observe what we do in the genetics of humans and the other apes.

All of the various kinds of shared genetic material with its pattern of accumulated mutations leads to only one conclusion, IMHO. Do you have another explantion? Is it testable? Is it falsifiable? Can you give one that is not ad hoc? Can you give one that is not arbitrary? Can you give one that is not specious? Can you give one that is not capricious?

I'll answer for you.

No, No, No, No, No, No and No.

There is no other logical answer than common descent. NONE. If there were, someone would have suggested it by now.

You have been playing your games, repeating the same catch phrases, making the same assertions and never backing up anything for months now. Do you have an answer to real data or will you just keep parroting the same junk here (and how many other places you do this I hate to venture a guess - http://www.christianforums.com/f70-creation-evolution.html ).

A real answer? A real debate? Real data? Or just the same old stuff?

I'll make a prediction. There is no YE answer to the genetic record so you'll be forced to keep parrotting the same old tired lines and assertions without ever giving us facts and references to support them.
 

Petrel

New Member
Interestingly enough, it ends up this book is at my university library. I'm going to go check it out in the next few days.
 

jcrawford

New Member
Originally posted by Petrel:
Interestingly enough, it ends up this book is at my university library. I'm going to go check it out in the next few days.
Good for you, Petrel. I hope it is the 2004 edition in which Lubenow scientifically demonstrates how there is no reliable genetic data or evidence of anything in the human fossil record, as UTEOWE so contentiously contends about human genes.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
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What did I tell you?

You have no answer. You just go back to your know it all book.

The genetics are there. Deal with it. Or at least tell us how good ol' Lub deals with it and provide his references so we can check them out.
 

UTEOTW

New Member
Originally posted by Petrel:
Interestingly enough, it ends up this book is at my university library. I'm going to go check it out in the next few days.
I'm sure yo know this already, but I would be thorough in checking out his references to see what they actually say and in looking up some of the criticisms of Lub's book that can be found.

These things can sound awfully convincing if you do not already have the background to spot the mistakes. But once you spot them, it goes downhill in a hurry.
 

Petrel

New Member
Well, I checked it out (the 1992 version, they don't have the 2004 version and I don't know if I could handle the genetics discussion in it right now anyways :D ). I've skimmed through the first few chapters and am not especially impressed. Right now he's trying to say that the Neanderthals were actually human, despite the fact that they used only the most rudimentary of tools throughout their existence and don't have the type of culture that is seen in even the most primitive human societies. He seems to be proposing that their unusual skull structure is a function of using their jaws as a tool to hold objects while manipulating them, saying that tooth damage seen in Neanderthals is similar to that seen in Eskimos who use their teeth similarly. Unfortunately, you don't manage to reshape your entire face and skull by using your teeth as a clamp--you just get bad teeth.

He has used several quotes that I'm planning on checking up on if I have time.

So far nothing on racism. :D
 
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