saturneptune
New Member
No I am not, and if I have to, I will pull out your own doctrine and prove you wrong again, just like I did about praying to Mary.
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Rep. Patrick Kennedy Denied Communion
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
Tom Butler
New Member
I ran across this while researching the OP question:
Catechism of the Catholic Church (Libreria Editrice Vaticana -- In the USA, Liguori Publications, 1994), Imprimi Potest Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Bold emphasis not in original.
Catechism of the Catholic Church (Libreria Editrice Vaticana -- In the USA, Liguori Publications, 1994), Imprimi Potest Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Bold emphasis not in original.
"There is no surer pledge or clearer sign of this great hope in the new heavens and new earth 'in which righteousness dwells,' than the Eucharist. Every time this mystery is celebrated, 'the work of our redemption is carried on' and we 'break the one bread that provides the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death, and the food that makes us live for ever in Jesus Christ'" (p.354).
"Taken literally (epi-ousios: 'super-essential'), it refers directly to the Bread of Life, the Body of Christ, the 'medicine of immortality,' without which we have no life within us" (p.681).
"The Lord addresses an invitation to us, urging us to receive him in the sacrament of the Eucharist: 'Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you' " (p.349).
"In addition to the Anointing of the Sick, the Church offers those who are about to leave this life the Eucharist as viaticum. Communion in the body and blood of Christ, received at this moment of 'passing over' to the Father, has a particular significance and importance. It is the seed of eternal life and the power of resurrection, according to the words of the Lord: 'He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day' " (p.381).
I would appreciate an explanation why, if these statements accurately represent the position of the RCC, that denying communion does not cut the communicant off from eternal life.
I would appreciate an explanation why, if these statements accurately represent the position of the RCC, that denying communion does not cut the communicant off from eternal life.
As I have said before, I became a Christian as a Baptist years ago. Asked the Lord Jesus to come into my life, forgive me and committed myself to follow Him as Savior and Lord. Some on this board feel that my becoming Catholic means that I have 'aposticized' and I would ask them what that means to them. Have I lost my salvation?? Was I never saved to begin with? For some of you, the later would be the only answer as I know this situation would be problematic to your theology.
I became a Catholic after much study and prayer. I have found a deeper committment to that same Jesus I met in the Baptist church years ago since I have become Catholic. I am able to attend the Eucharist daily as well as incorporate the Liturgy of the Hours into my day. My study of God's word and my prayer life has been enriched by my entry into the Catholic Church. It is not a gospel OF works but one that recognizes the relationship between faith and works.
I became a Catholic after much study and prayer. I have found a deeper committment to that same Jesus I met in the Baptist church years ago since I have become Catholic. I am able to attend the Eucharist daily as well as incorporate the Liturgy of the Hours into my day. My study of God's word and my prayer life has been enriched by my entry into the Catholic Church. It is not a gospel OF works but one that recognizes the relationship between faith and works.
No I am not, and if I have to, I will pull out your own doctrine and prove you wrong again, just like I did about praying to Mary.
Bring it on!
And just so we are clear. This particular 'doctrine' you are going to supply is about the 'sinlessness of the pope'. Don't try to sidestep your assertion that the pope is supposed to be sinless and start spewing garbage about Mary and the saints.
Please use the cathechism so we can all follow along.
Please use the cathechism so we can all follow along.
saturneptune
New Member
Here is the words from your own doctrine about marriage.
I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?
All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/marriages/index.htm#4
And even more ridiculous:
Are a couple in a mixed marriage (Protestant and Catholic), who completed their Catholic marriage preparation and were permitted to be married by the Catholic Church, required to raise their children as Catholics?
Yes. The Catholic party to a mixed marriage must make a solemn promise before the before the wedding to do all that is possible to have all the children baptized and reared as Catholics. The non-Catholic party, of course, should know about this promise made by the Catholic. It would be a very serious sin for a Catholic in a mixed marriage to violate this promise.
To follow, your doctrine about sinless created beings.
I have a Catholic friend who was married in a Lutheran Church. He was told by a priest he cannot receive Holy Communion because he is living in a state of sin, not being really married. Is that true?
All Catholics are bound for licitly and validity, to the Catholic form of marriage, unless they receive a dispensation from that form. Therefore, a Catholic who would marry outside the Catholic form without a dispensation from the bishop would not be married in the eyes of God. His or her marriage would be illicit and invalid and such a person would be living in a state of serious sin.
http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/marriages/index.htm#4
And even more ridiculous:
Are a couple in a mixed marriage (Protestant and Catholic), who completed their Catholic marriage preparation and were permitted to be married by the Catholic Church, required to raise their children as Catholics?
Yes. The Catholic party to a mixed marriage must make a solemn promise before the before the wedding to do all that is possible to have all the children baptized and reared as Catholics. The non-Catholic party, of course, should know about this promise made by the Catholic. It would be a very serious sin for a Catholic in a mixed marriage to violate this promise.
To follow, your doctrine about sinless created beings.
saturneptune
New Member
I am using your doctrine, cathechism or not, which is in tune with the Bible about as much as my singing is to a hymnal.And just so we are clear. This particular 'doctrine' you are going to supply is about the 'sinlessness of the pope'. Don't try to sidestep your assertion that the pope is supposed to be sinless and start spewing garbage about Mary and the saints.
Please use the cathechism so we can all follow along.
I am using your doctrine, cathechism or not, which is in tune with the Bible about as much as my singing is to a hymnal.
Again, I'm looking for the 'doctrine' that states the pope is sinless.
saturneptune
New Member
To build on the status of the pope, lets start with the fact that you believe created beings such as Mary are sinless in their own right.
Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception
DAVID M. BRISTOW
Why do Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception? The belief means that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved without sin for her entire life.
It was Mary's closeness to Christ that made her receive God's "fullness of grace" to be sinless. Without God's grace, it would have been impossible for Mary to be sinless, and she too would be like the rest of humanity. However, because of her decision to say, "yes" in giving birth to Christ, she was given a special privilege by having no sin touch her. Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html
Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception
DAVID M. BRISTOW
Why do Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception? The belief means that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved without sin for her entire life.
It was Mary's closeness to Christ that made her receive God's "fullness of grace" to be sinless. Without God's grace, it would have been impossible for Mary to be sinless, and she too would be like the rest of humanity. However, because of her decision to say, "yes" in giving birth to Christ, she was given a special privilege by having no sin touch her. Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html
You see, SN, you won't be able to find it. You make these false statements about Catholics and for the most part you get away with it. Not too many of us here to call you on it. You do not know squat about the Catholic Church. Only what you want to know. You won't study or read Catholic material because it is EVIL. You want to see everything through Baptist eyes and Baptist eyes only. I just wish you would quit making ridiculous claims like the 'sinless pope' comment. It is wrong, a false witness and ABSURD!
To build on the status of the pope, lets start with the fact that you believe created beings such as Mary are sinless in their own right.
Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception
DAVID M. BRISTOW
Why do Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception? The belief means that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved without sin for her entire life.
It was Mary's closeness to Christ that made her receive God's "fullness of grace" to be sinless. Without God's grace, it would have been impossible for Mary to be sinless, and she too would be like the rest of humanity. However, because of her decision to say, "yes" in giving birth to Christ, she was given a special privilege by having no sin touch her. Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html
Remember I said you would do this. Here you go about Mary. That has nothing to do with your claim that the Catholic Church teaches that the pope is sinless. Please stick to that and show your evidence.
saturneptune
New Member
I just proved you wrong about Catholic marriage, about purgatory, about Mary, it is you that does not understand a works gospel preached by your cult. Why do you accuse others of false witness, if it were not for that term, the Catholic church would not exist.You see, SN, you won't be able to find it. You make these false statements about Catholics and for the most part you get away with it. Not too many of us here to call you on it. You do not know squat about the Catholic Church. Only what you want to know. You won't study or read Catholic material because it is EVIL. You want to see everything through Baptist eyes and Baptist eyes only. I just wish you would quit making ridiculous claims like the 'sinless pope' comment. It is wrong, a false witness and ABSURD!
Now back to your infallible pope
Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter
Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter
Now, you can do all the double talk you want about infallibility vs sin vs original sin, the fact is, the pope is put is a special status by your church when the Bible says we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Is there one point you have gotten right in the last two weeks?
And BTW, the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was kept from Original Sin, not that she was sinless. She herself called Jesus her savior. We don't know what sins Mary committed after the birth of Jesus, just that it was necessary for her to be free of Original Sin in order for her to bear the King of Kings in her womb.
The church teaches she was kept clean from Original Sin. However, you said we have a 'sinless pope'. Did you not?
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saturneptune
New Member
Another sign of a works salvation. The only way any created being is kept from sin is faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. That means Mary and anyone else.Also, I don't have a problem with Catholics that want to believe that Mary never committed sin. I understand why they might think God kept her from committing sin. The church teaches she was kept clean from Original Sin.
Another sign of a works salvation. The only way any created being is kept from sin is faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. That means Mary and anyone else.
Again, sidestepping on Mary. You get backed into a corner and then try to dodge the bullet.
saturneptune
New Member
A status invented by later Vatican proclamations to back peddle on the sinless issue. There are two states, either you are sinful or sinless, and all of us, including the pope, are sinners. He is not half way in between. He is not sinful sometimes, and then infallible on special occasions, as the articles explain. He is either sinful or not, and guess what, he is a sinner just like me, and just like Mary.What is the difference between infallibility and sinless??
saturneptune
New Member
You have lost on every point, from your own faith. What are you reading in church, Superman comic books?Again, sidestepping on Mary. You get backed into a corner and then try to dodge the bullet.
There is no sidestepping. The pope is a sinner, just like Mary. Guilty as charged.
Oh, and while we are talking about the side step, why have you dropped the subject of Catholic marriages?
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You made the comment, a false one, about a 'sinless pope'. You want to accuse me of double talk? You then go about throwing Mary, the saints, purgatory and all the 'usual suspects in there to sidestep the fact that you made a false statement about the Catholic teaching on the pope. Infallibility is NOT sinlessness. I would say 'you know that' but I'm not sure you do. You clearly made a FALSE STATEMENT.