Reparations

[Shoostie]

For those wishing to find biblical grounds for looting from the innocent and giving money to non-victims, the Bible condones slavery.

 

[agedman]

OK, thanks. We are only talking about people who purchased African slaves in the USA and how Americans can pay reparations, right? I would add that the Islamic slave traders past & present have done nothing wrong because Islam teaches that slavery is okay, right? The obvious answer is to pass legislation to pay money to all blacks in the USA, right?

No,

We’re attempting to discern what 5he Scripture principle is concerning reparations.


The social, political, or emotional issues are to be set aside so that scripture principles concerning if, when, how,... reparations are found in Scriptures and then how that may be taught to the assembly as a principle to form decisions.

Too that end, the OP and post #16 quote extensively from a well known Gospel Coalition author to jump start the thread.

 

[agedman]

If you were to do what I suggested instead of ignoring it, you might make some progress. Focus it on current issues: human trafficking, false imprisonment, and the like.

You are not going to resurrect those who were enslaved or those who enslaved them. You are raising a moot issue leading to a deadend. The best you could do on that point is study the history of what was done at the time, why (or on what basis) it was done, and see what might have or should have been done differently.

This pretending that nothing at all was ever done is a lie, no matter how much Scripture you throw at it. In your quest here, you are already buying into the politics of it whether you admit it or not.

But the thread isn’t about making policy.

The thread is finding Scripture principles in which to give to the assembly in which they may discern policies that are or are not Scriptural.

Too often on a wide range of topics, the decision of policy is based on emotional appeal rather than principle.

Do you not consider that discerning the principle of Scripture would make for declaration from a believer when discussing a policy?

This is why the thread is so narrowly focused.

What Scriptures can be a guide?

Does the writing posted in the OP and #16 stand, or is it inappropriately used and other Scriptures gave a more supported principle?

 

[agedman]

For those wishing to find biblical grounds for looting from the innocent and giving money to non-victims, the Bible condones slavery.

Do you find the Scriptures opposed to reparations in light of the OP and post #16?

Or do you find the Scriptures silent on the topic of reparations?

What principle(s) do the Scriptures present in which the assembly may use as a guide through the emotionalism and evil influence in discerning what is righteous concerning this topic?

 

[church mouse guy]

No,

We’re attempting to discern what 5he Scripture principle is concerning reparations.


The social, political, or emotional issues are to be set aside so that scripture principles concerning if, when, how,... reparations are found in Scriptures and then how that may be taught to the assembly as a principle to form decisions.

Too that end, the OP and post #16 quote extensively from a well known Gospel Coalition author to jump start the thread.

Got ya! The article cited in post # 16 is from Rev. Thabiti Anyabwile of the Washington DC Anacostia River Church, whose website does not say what they believe. He pins everything in the article cited on Ezra 1-6, which is somewhat opaque because it deals with a war and a peace settlement. Also, the time period is only 70 years whereas African slavery was introduced in the new world in the 16th century I think. So it would be impossible to go back over 500 years as no records would exist. Also, the US slaves were freed in the 19th century, and again the records are inaccurate. Ezra would know who was a Jew and who was not so his job was very clear. So in the case of American slavery which ended 155 years ago, it is impossible to identify the slave holders and the slaves so that reparations could be made. Again, I personally do not think that Ezra is a clear guide for the Gospel Coalition since the Jews were taken captive as a result of a war but allowed to go home after 70 years and were given some provisions by their captors. However, the second temple was not as nice as the first one, so how can this be a clear example?

Also, in the US case, Americans did not conquer the slaves as the Jews were conquered. Americans purchased the slaves from others. So how would you calculate what is due? It would seem that those who sold the African slaves into the US gained a lot of money and that they should also have to pay reparations but how would you go back 500 years on all of that?

 

[agedman]

Perhaps I should present my own opinions concerning the biblical principle.

I don’t find (and I certainly may be wrong) that the Scriptures separate reparations from repatriation. Rather they are inseparable.

This was seen in the Exodus. “Let my people go” was coupled with provision to journey to another place.

It was seen in Ezra, people returned with provision.

This was seen in the case of Paul and Philemon.

This is seen in the return of Christ as He brings His Kingdom to earth for the millennial reign.

It is seen by the final estate of the believers in that prepared place.

This is TOTALLY MY OPINION, and not to be taken as established principle.

Far more locking into the actual Scriptures is necessary.


That is why this thread is necessary.

 

[church mouse guy]

What if the slavery has been so long that the slave does not know where he was from?

 

[agedman]

What if the slavery has been so long that the slave does not know where he was from?

Does a slave ever forget their original home?

What of the unreturned care of the wounded who was best upon by thieves?

Does that present a reparation principle?

Just wondering the believer’s salvation?

Does that have reparation involvement?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

So far it seems that individual reparations should be made to individuals within the generation offended. That is a good principle to remember.


Here is another portion where the author from the OP begins to lay out the case for state reparations made to later generations.

Again this is taken from "Reparations are Biblical" and this thread is NOT to be a political argument, but one to discern the Scripture principles.
For review of the actual article look at: (Reparations Are Biblical)

I might put my brief case in one sentence: If the Lord God himself caused a state head through taxation to require later generations of people who committed no crime to pay monies to their contemporaries who did not suffer the original crime, then it cannot be unjust (quite the opposite!) for state actors to do the same today.​

Consider the book of Ezra. The action begins “in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia” (Ezra 1:1). That places us at 539 B.C. when Cyrus the Great came to power. It is 70 years after Babylon captured Israel and took them into captivity. Already we’re talking about roughly two generations. Please note that everything that happens is so “that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled” (Ezra 1:1). What had God spoken through Jeremiah? Essentially that after 70 years the Lord would return Israel from captivity back to the land (Jer. 29:10-14). One hundred years prior, Isaiah also prophesied that the return would happen at the hand of a pagan ruler named Cyrus (Isa. 45:1). Ezra really records the fulfilling of God’s promise.
​

A paragraph latter he expresses:

What do we see relevant to our discussion of reparations? We see exactly what we’re told would be injustices in any modern program of reparations. In Ezra 6:6-12, King Darius—a king who wasn’t even born when Israel was conquered ruling over an empire that wasn’t even in existence when the exile began—passed a law decreeing that taxes be paid by people who did not conquer or abuse Israel in order to restore Israelites who themselves were not alive during the Babylonian conquest of Israel.

Darius decreed, “The cost [of rebuilding the house of God] is to be paid to these men in full and without delay from the royal revenue, the tribute of the province from Beyond the River” (Ezra 6:8). In fact, those citizens “from Beyond the River” were themselves a people who were at some point conquered and swallowed up by the empire. In other words, Darius, as head of state, compels his citizens through taxes to pay a reparation to Israel even though those citizens did not commit the offense and those Israelites did not directly suffer the offense. What had been stolen was returned and then some as the province was commanded to give “whatever is needed” to restore temple worship and offerings “day by day without fail” (v. 9).

So it seems to me that the “innocence,” “unharmed” and “generational tax” objections all fail in this historical example. If God, who is just and only does justice, has acted in this way then it cannot be unjust for nation-states to voluntarily repay its own citizens for crimes suffered at its hands—no matter when the crimes occurred.
​

I realize this is an extensive "copy paste" however I didn't find a way to remove portions without causing some distortion.

Two questions;

1). Does the author make the case for the innocence paying reparations? If not - Why (use Scriptures).
2) What are your thoughts concerning his use of Ezra, for Biblical support? (is it out of context, making extra-biblical points, ...)​

I realize it is very difficult not to enter into political statements, but the purpose of the thread to discern whether the use of the Scripture was done appropriately by the referred author, and how the topic may be presented to the assembly in an appropriate manner.

This thread is important so that pastor/teachers may preplan their own presentations and give an answer from the Scriptures as to the principles and concerns of their own assembly.

Please present accordingly.

OK, I’ll play your politically laced “non-political” game for a moment. But before you pooh-pooh it, try comparing it to your own posting first and think about the implications.

1. Darius was not God. Did God order Darius to decree the taxation? No.

2. Are “state actors” God? No, nor is a democratic republic a monarchy.

3. What prophecies have been made concerning general return/reparations? None.

4. Darius was arranging for the Israelites to return to their original state. Who wants to be “shipped back” to live at the same level of subsistence as their ancestors centuries ago? Best guess: None.

Again, this issue is moot in the context of American slavery, which is the precise context of the article. It is completely political. Today, many people are risking their lives for a chance to live in America with less advantage and privilege than citizen minorities. The “woke” need to wake up and start working on what really needs addressing.

 

[agedman]

OK, I’ll play your politically laced “non-political” game for a moment. But before you pooh-pooh it, try comparing it to your own posting first and think about the implications.

1. Darius was not God. Did God order Darius to decree the taxation? No.

2. Are “state actors” God? No, nor is a democratic republic a monarchy.

3. What prophecies have been made concerning general return/reparations? None.

4. Darius was arranging for the Israelites to return to their original state. Who wants to be “shipped back” to live at the same level of subsistence as their ancestors centuries ago? Best guess: None.

Again, this issue is moot in the context of American slavery, which is the precise context of the article. It is completely political. Today, many people are risking their lives for a chance to live in America with less advantage and privilege than citizen minorities. The “woke” need to wake up and start working on what really needs addressing.

You make some good points concerning the prophets and Darius.

Although the author is siding with reparation thinking, I also consider he has stretched the Scriptures inappropriately.

Because he is focused upon principle building, and did so, (imo) doing disservice to the Scripture presentation, yet knowing this issue in the states is more emotion driven then principals taken from Scripture, I sought other’s wisdom to formulate the principles.

Do you find any Scriptures showing reparations without repatriation?

Wasn’t the Jewish 7th year aligned with both reparation and repatriation as an inseparable unit, unless one was contented to remain in servitude?

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Good.

My own difficulty with using Ezra as a foundation is that is the only place in Scriptures, then neither principle nor even persuasion may be taken.

For such to occur, as you know, there must be precept built upon precept...

That's just part of my issues with using Ezra in that manner.
Also, I see a difference between Biblical passages that are descriptive and those that are prescriptive. Ezra, as concerning the actions of a pagan king, is descriptive. Whether those events qualify as reparations, repatriations or both, they merely describe one incident (as you have noted) and I see no biblical commands to "go and do likewise."

Beyond that, the Babylonian captivity was very clearly God's judgment on the Jews for their apostasy, idolatry and their not obeying the 7th-year sabbath requirement of leaving their fields fallow that year. (I've heard preachers say that the 70-year exile equaled all the sabbath years not practiced by the Jews.) The Bible has no such record of slavery (as practiced in North America, among other places) being God's judgment on a particular ethnic/racial people. Thus the events recounted by Ezra do not, IMO, provide any biblical guidance for the current reparations discussion in the US (or anywhere else.)

 

[Revmitchell]

There were black slave owners. Are blacks going to obtain reparations from themselves?

 

[agedman]

That's just part of my issues with using Ezra in that manner.
Also, I see a difference between Biblical passages that are descriptive and those that are prescriptive. Ezra, as concerning the actions of a pagan king, is descriptive. Whether those events qualify as reparations, repatriations or both, they merely describe one incident (as you have noted) and I see no biblical commands to "go and do likewise."

Beyond that, the Babylonian captivity was very clearly God's judgment on the Jews for their apostasy, idolatry and their not obeying the 7th-year sabbath requirement of leaving their fields fallow that year. (I've heard preachers say that the 70-year exile equaled all the sabbath years not practiced by the Jews.) The Bible has no such record of slavery (as practiced in North America, among other places) being God's judgment on a particular ethnic/racial people. Thus the events recounted by Ezra do not, IMO, provide any biblical guidance for the current reparations discussion in the US (or anywhere else.)

interesting observation about the descriptive and proscriptive passages.

Can principles not ever be aligned with descriptive passages of what is not proscriptive?

 

[agedman]

There were black slave owners. Are blacks going to obtain reparations from themselves?

Not certain this question pertains to a thread on principle rather than policy.

However, considering your question, would it need to discern if the Scriptures present Jews paying reparations to Jews?

Wasn’t that done when one tribe nearly wiped out another?

 

[church mouse guy]

Does a slave ever forget their original home?

What of the unreturned care of the wounded who was best upon by thieves?

Does that present a reparation principle?

Just wondering the believer’s salvation?

Does that have reparation involvement?

I doubt if many American blacks know what country they came from.

 

[agedman]

I doubt if many American blacks know what country they came from.

Perhaps not, but that really isn’t the concern of the tread.

The assembly should develop some scripture based principles from which to engage discernment of policy.

The thread seeks something of a more solid basis then the article author presents.

 

[church mouse guy]

Perhaps not, but that really isn’t the concern of the tread.

The assembly should develop some scripture based principles from which to engage discernment of policy.

The thread seeks something of a more solid basis then the article author presents.

You just said that everyone knew what country they came from and that the idea of reparations was repatriation also in your opinion so of course it is concerning the thread or you would not have raised the subject, but I am glad that you concede that after 500 years some people might not know where their ancestors lived before the Muslim slave traders captured them or purchased them from others and sold them overseas.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not certain this question pertains to a thread on principle rather than policy.

However, considering your question, would it need to discern if the Scriptures present Jews paying reparations to Jews?

Not centuries later

Wasn’t that done when one tribe nearly wiped out another?

 

[Van]

Thats Tha I pointed out the Indian.

If you are saying "reparations" is unbiblical, we agree.

 

[agedman]

If you are saying "reparations" is unbiblical, we agree.

Why?