Reparations

[Shoostie]

The purpose of this thread is to explore Scripture to validate or not Anyabwile's claims and to discern what practical participation or not the local assembly should take.

I object to your position that all posters here must stipulate that reparations are owed by innocent people to non-victims, or that slavery has any relevancy today to anyone's financial state. It seems your position is that reparations are owed, but should Christians find scriptural excuses to not repay. The reparations movement is all about looting and stealing.

 

[agedman]

I object to your position that all posters here must stipulate that reparations are owed by innocent people to non-victims, or that slavery has any relevancy today to anyone's financial state. It seems your position is that reparations are owed, but should Christians find scriptural excuses to not repay. The reparations movement is all about looting and stealing.

Did I state such a position or stipulate any obligations?

Have not i stressed that thread was to discover and discern principle(s) and not about any policies?

Did not this thread start by exploring the use of scripture by an author of the Gospel Coalition for rebuttal or support?

Is not this thread centered on discerning Scripture guidance concerning reparations that instruction be made to the assembly?

Perhaps you will be able to quote a post in which demonstrated my desire to conform anyone to my thinking, or that I have presented any political process needed to be taken?

Do you not find any place in the Scriptures in which reparations were commanded for evil done to others?

The author quoted used Ezra for the basis of his presentation.

Was he right?

If not, why?

If he was, are there other supporting Scriptures?

What principle(s) concerning reparations do the Scripture place as guidance to believers?

 

[Particular]

The Mosaic Law gives instructions to Israel where the offending party pays restitution (reparation) to the victim. This law is governmental and as such the US government could fashion their own laws after it as a sort of "case law."
If we were to follow this path regarding slavery in the US, then only slave holding states before the Emancipation Proclamation would be held responsible for reparations. In fact, we could break it down to...only slave owning families in those slave States would be held responsible for reparations. States/families who did not have slavery, or States that did not exist at the time would be exempt. Anyone who could not prove ancestral lines to slavery would be excluded. Anyone who could not be tied to owning slaves would be excluded. Only the victim of the offender would receive restitution. (Nashville would be emptied of it's old money.) Rule of law would be accomplished.
So, yes, based upon the Mosaic Law, a reparations law could be established in the US. How quickly would racism rise if such a law were invoked? Wow, it would get ugly.

 

[agedman]

The Mosaic Law gives instructions to Israel where the offending party pays restitution (reparation) to the victim. This law is governmental and as such the US government could fashion their own laws after it as a sort of "case law."
If we were to follow this path regarding slavery in the US, then only slave holding states before the Emancipation Proclamation would be held responsible for reparations. In fact, we could break it down to...only slave owning families in those slave States would be held responsible for reparations. States/families who did not have slavery, or States that did not exist at the time would be exempt. Anyone who could not prove ancestral lines to slavery would be excluded. Anyone who could not be tied to owning slaves would be excluded. Only the victim of the offender would receive restitution. (Nashville would be emptied of it's old money.) Rule of law would be accomplished.
So, yes, based upon the Mosaic Law, a reparations law could be established in the US. How quickly would racism rise if such a law were invoked? Wow, it would get ugly.

Would you give the specific passages so readers can see the area your thinking about?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The Mosaic Law gives instructions to Israel where the offending party pays restitution (reparation) to the victim. This law is governmental and as such the US government could fashion their own laws after it as a sort of "case law."
If we were to follow this path regarding slavery in the US, then only slave holding states before the Emancipation Proclamation would be held responsible for reparations. In fact, we could break it down to...only slave owning families in those slave States would be held responsible for reparations. States/families who did not have slavery, or States that did not exist at the time would be exempt. Anyone who could not prove ancestral lines to slavery would be excluded. Anyone who could not be tied to owning slaves would be excluded. Only the victim of the offender would receive restitution. (Nashville would be emptied of it's old money.) Rule of law would be accomplished.
So, yes, based upon the Mosaic Law, a reparations law could be established in the US. How quickly would racism rise if such a law were invoked? Wow, it would get ugly.

Yet again, this turns political immediately, because the admitted intent is to apply it solely to one issue—American slavery—but only very narrowly, without any thought to historical context. If we were to take this matter seriously, we would have to assess kidnappers, enemy tribes, slavers, transporters, traders, financiers, shipbuilders, everyone involved in the whole sordid mess of triangular slave trading. Then we would also have to review all that transpired since to right the wrongs and all benefits that have accrued compared to what each person’s state would have been had they never come to or been born in America.

 

[Particular]

Would you give the specific passages so readers can see the area your thinking about?

I believe they have already been provided in this thread by another person. They are in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

 

[Particular]

Yet again, this turns political immediately, because the admitted intent is to apply it solely to one issue—American slavery—but only very narrowly, without any thought to historical context. If we were to take this matter seriously, we would have to assess kidnappers, enemy tribes, slavers, transporters, traders, financiers, shipbuilders, everyone involved in the whole sordid mess of triangular slave trading. Then we would also have to review all that transpired since to right the wrongs and all benefits that have accrued compared to what each person’s state would have been had they never come to or been born in America.

Indeed, it would be messy and it would reveal injustice.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

interesting observation about the descriptive and proscriptive passages.

Can principles not ever be aligned with descriptive passages of what is not proscriptive?

I would be cautious in so doing, though if a certain acceptable-to-God behavior was described in multiple passages, that would add weight to considering it as a principle. I'd offer the Sunday meeting day as a possible example where caution seems appropriate. Paul told the Corinthians to gather offerings on the first day of the week, though he added that it be done before he came to minister there, so I'm not sure that's a command to meet for worship and fellowship on the 1st day. That day is certainly fitting, as Christ arose on the 1st day, but Paul also wrote to the Romans about being cautious in esteeming one day above another. It seems there's some liberty there, though whichever day we choose, it should be done for the Lord.

 

[agedman]

Yet again, this turns political immediately, because the admitted intent is to apply it solely to one issue—American slavery—but only very narrowly, without any thought to historical context. If we were to take this matter seriously, we would have to assess kidnappers, enemy tribes, slavers, transporters, traders, financiers, shipbuilders, everyone involved in the whole sordid mess of triangular slave trading. Then we would also have to review all that transpired since to right the wrongs and all benefits that have accrued compared to what each person’s state would have been had they never come to or been born in America.

I believe they have already been provided in this thread by another person. They are in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Indeed, it would be messy and it would reveal injustice.

I would be cautious in so doing, though if a certain acceptable-to-God behavior was described in multiple passages, that would add weight to considering it as a principle. I'd offer the Sunday meeting day as a possible example where caution seems appropriate. Paul told the Corinthians to gather offerings on the first day of the week, though he added that it be done before he came to minister there, so I'm not sure that's a command to meet for worship and fellowship on the 1st day. That day is certainly fitting, as Christ arose on the 1st day, but Paul also wrote to the Romans about being cautious in esteeming one day above another. It seems there's some liberty there, though whichever day we choose, it should be done for the Lord.

These are all good observations.

Deuteronomy and Leviticus present specifically difficult passages, because of the alignment with a specific grouping of folks.

The problem of even finding a working principle from which one can present as a constant from the Scriptures is obviously difficult as we have progressed in the thread.

The Scriptures do have some kind of reparation/repatriation if one can use Ezra and Philemon.

The Scriptures also have Individual/family reparation- repatriation if one looks at the Books of Moses.

Should one look upon the believer's responsibility, then help and restoration is to anyone currently in need as given by the parable of the man set upon by thieves and discovered by the Samaritan.

Therefore, is it such that the Scriptures do not present a principle on this issue? No, I don't think so. However, nothing fits the politics. Perhaps the politics are so very wrong?

Could it be that God knowing that the nature of humankind is always evil against each other, no principle was given beyond that explored?

Is there a nuance found in the Scriptures that this thread is missing?

I know it is easy to drift into the politics and history, and I appreciate those who have willingly set aside such in order to bring discernment of the authority of Scriptures to this thread.

Perhaps, there is yet someone with Wisdom who may have something from Scriptures in which we believers may use effectively as a discerning principle in what is correct from the political spectrum.

I do know this topic can get ugly, fast, and I appreciate all the posters attending to the Scriptures rather than emotional exuberance.

 

[Vanya]

I place thread in this forum rather than the political forum so that biblical principles may be explored rather than the debate over the politics.

Member of the Gospel Coalition author Thabiti Anyabwile, popular author and pastor wrote:

How might we define “reparations” in principle? I would define reparations as “material and social repayment made as acknowledgement and restitution by an offending party to an aggrieved party for wrong(s) done in order to repair the injuries, losses and/or disadvantages caused by the wrong.” Though these are my own words, I have in mind the work of William “Sandy” Darity at Duke University, who argues that reparations should have three aims: (a) acknowledgement of the wrongs done, (b) payment for the wrongs done, and (c) closure for both parties. (Reparations Are Biblical)
​

He gives these agreements:

1. Restitution is biblical. There’s disagreement about whether to emphasize the individual or groups, and whether repayment for the estimated cost in today’s dollars is feasible, but no one I know rejects restitution in principle (Exod. 21-22; Lev. 5; Luke 19:1-10).
2. A grievous wrong was done in the American practice of slavery. There are some fringe perspectives that deny slavery was “all that bad” or attempt to argue slavery was “for the African’s good.” But in general, most people think slavery was wrong and a grievous wrong done to African Americans.
3. Reparations was owed at some point. Even many of the opponents of reparations in today’s context will allow that reparations should have been paid to that generation of freed persons following the Civil War. Some would even cite Special Field Order 15and argue that had it been followed then we would not be in the predicament we are in today. However, after that generation of African American freedmen, agreement on reparations breaks down. (Reparations Are Biblical)

The purpose of this thread is to explore Scripture to validate or not Anyabwile's claims and to discern what practical participation or not the local assembly should take.

Again, this is NOT a political debate based upon opinion and agenda, but one in which the Scriptures are to be the deciding factors. This is also not a discussion of the biography of the author.

Your thoughts?

I think this is an irrelevant discussion. What about Irish/Scottish slaves send to America or White slavery in Europe which continued almost until 17. century?
What about White man/women/children forced to work 14 hours a day or burned in factories behind locked doors?
Or indentured servitude (which we still see a reflection of this in brothels)
What about reparations for the people of Libya, Iraq or Syria?
Do you care about the people dying in Yemen? Not 200 years ago but still!
What about women abused from all races by men? Sexual slavery is still alive! Any plans to end this slavery? Or we don't mind because maybe some of us enjoy this secretly!
What about International Bankers selling debts of nations for profit? Or charging them with higher interests knowing they desperately need money? They don't look to the race. They rob and kill people of all color and races.
I think this race staff is used to attack White people and/or Whiteness and I find it unfair. My grandparents had to leave their home city (Prizren behind). Even though they were Slavic, they were killed and expelled from their land. 3 millions muslims (regardless of their ethnicity) were killed and other 3 million were forced to leave their lands in the 19th century.
As someone from a suffered family I think these reparation staff is open to abuse. History is history.

 

[agedman]

I think this is an irrelevant discussion. What about Irish/Scottish slaves send to America or White slavery in Europe which continued almost until 17. century?
What about White man/women/children forced to work 14 hours a day or burned in factories behind locked doors?
Or indentured servitude (which we still see a reflection of this in brothels)
What about reparations for the people of Libya, Iraq or Syria?
Do you care about the people dying in Yemen? Not 200 years ago but still!
What about women abused from all races by men? Sexual slavery is still alive! Any plans to end this slavery? Or we don't mind because maybe some of us enjoy this secretly!
What about International Bankers selling debts of nations for profit? Or charging them with higher interests knowing they desperately need money? They don't look to the race. They rob and kill people of all color and races.
I think this race staff is used to attack White people and/or Whiteness and I find it unfair. My grandparents had to leave their home city (Prizren behind). Even though they were Slavic, they were killed and expelled from their land. 3 millions muslims (regardless of their ethnicity) were killed and other 3 million were forced to leave their lands in the 19th century.
As someone from a suffered family I think these reparation staff is open to abuse. History is history.

Your posting on the wrong thread.

Look in the political form for the reparations thread.

This one attends to the desire to fund some Scripture principle.

Should you find something from Scriptures it goes here.

Political thinking goes in the other thread.

 

[Van]

Why?

I asked a question and you did not answer, but instead asked a question. If you want to continue to sidestep, here is another question for you. Why?

As the verses I posted demonstrate, reparations are unbiblical.

Some unstudied voices say "visiting the iniquities" to the fourth Generation supports holding children accountable. Not what the phrase means. The consequence of sin can adversely affect others in subsequent Generations. But the solution is not to fan class or race warfare, rather it is to forgive and remember no more forever.

Pay no attention to false doctrine from false teachers.

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Exodus 34:7 ESV
Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV
“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

John 9:1-3 ESV
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

 

[agedman]

I like the way you bring condemnation to your own posts by putting, “Pay no attention to false doctrine from false teachers.” in it.

You should use that disclaimer more often.

 

[church mouse guy]

I know that this is a repetition but the fact is that the Jews were not paid full reparations with the rebuilding of the temple because the second temple could not compare to the first temple:

Haggai 2:3 (KJV) Who [is] left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do ye see it now? [is it] not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?

 

[agedman]

The difficulty with finding permission in the Scriptures for reparations is that slavery was a matter of approval by God in some OT cases.

What was NOT approved was the mistreatment of slaves.

Therefore, perhaps along with reparations the thread should explore what were the signifiers of mistreatment and the method of resolving those issues.

I'm still not convinced that reparation and repatriation do not go hand in glove.

But, I could very well be wrong.

 

[church mouse guy]

I know Islam teaches that slavery is okay, including sexual slavery.

And one can be a love slave of Jesus.

The Jews were not given reparations because the second temple could not hold a candle to the first. It is unlikely that the third temple will be much better than the second due to lack of money.

 

[robycop3]

There's no Scripture saying we owe reparations for what our ancestors did. However, it IS the CHRISTIAN thing to do of WE cheated someone outta something, or stole from someone in our BC days. An example is Zacchaeus telling Jesus he would more-than-repay those whom he overcharged for taxes (which was a common practice among publicans, the Roman tax collectors who had authority to charge what they chose over & above the required Roman govt. tax,having authority to arrest anyone who didn't comply.)

I dunno if my ancestors owned any slaves or participated in any "Indian wars" or not; all I know is that one great-grandpa was a Civil War Union soldier who never saw combat, & that one great-great-grandparent was a full-blooded Ute Indian. I don't owe anyone anything for anything they did.

 

[agedman]

There's no Scripture saying we owe reparations for what our ancestors did. However, it IS the CHRISTIAN thing to do of WE cheated someone outta something, or stole from someone in our BC days. An example is Zacchaeus telling Jesus he would more-than-repay those whom he overcharged for taxes (which was a common practice among publicans, the Roman tax collectors who had authority to charge what they chose over & above the required Roman govt. tax,having authority to arrest anyone who didn't comply.)

I dunno if my ancestors owned any slaves or participated in any "Indian wars" or not; all I know is that one great-grandpa was a Civil War Union soldier who never saw combat, & that one great-great-grandparent was a full-blooded Ute Indian. I don't owe anyone anything for anything they did.

I have folks all the way back to the Jamestown colony. Some in the Dutch "New Amsterdam" and those who helped William Penn. So, the conflicts are littered with ancestry dead and deeds.

That said, the thread has been good in discovering a few Scriptural principles.

Perhaps one is that in the OT the reparations, if not toward the same family grouping (as the twelve tribes), were also part of a repatriation package. Those not repatriated were given no reparations (this was seen by Ezra being sustained for a specific mission.

The reparations to and between families were a matter of single generation and not carried from one to the next. That is the father's sin did not obligate the son, nor the son, who had left home, did not obligate the father (not locked down on that, just yet.)

Perhaps another is that the NT restoration. It is specific to believer interactions to other believers and is to be subject to either the agreement of each, or submitted before the whole assembly. (again, there is room for more discussion in this)

I would encourage those who desire to speak to a more political presentation, to visit the politics Forum and find "Reparations 2" and make comments for that purpose, there.

 

[Marooncat79]

I would be glad to give the liberals California and the NE down to almost NYC and Wisconsin, Philly and Balt.

Then we can build a wall to keep them away!

 

[Revmitchell]

Not a single racist post in this thread