Sir, my post was true, and for the purpose to edification.
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Repeating the Lords Prayer
- Thread starter Salty
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Again, where did you get this? And no, these two versions are not the same as one means it sustains your viewpoint on the prayer as just a template and it obviously does not read like the actual prayer given to us. Here is the KJV:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So even that differs from your version, so did you write it yourself?
You know, once again we see where all of Christendom said this particular prayer verbatim as recorded in the Holy Scriptures, it was also part of the Christian worship liturgy from day one and suddenly hundreds upon hundreds of years after the fact you guys suddenly come up with the idea that it is just a template for prayer. Not so! You simply have got this one wrong as you have gotten so much else wrong. With this stance on this issue your credibility on scriptural interpretation is very low.
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FALSE on both counts.
Go back and read post #24, where I laid out the Biblical refutation for this nonsense.
Here it is again for your edification:
In Matt. 26:44, our Lord himself prayed the exact same prayer three times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.
Was this a “vain repetition”??
In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.”
Was this a “vain repetition”??
We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the exact same prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.” Is this a “vain repetition”??
Is Psalm 136 promoting “vain repetitions” when it goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact samee prayer, “God's love endures forever”??
Is the Book of Daniel promoting “vain repetitions” as we read the exact same prayer for 32 verses (Dan. 3:56-88), which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever”??
When Jesus chided the heathen for their "vain repetitions" - He was talking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods – NOT the sincere prayers of the faithful. We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances.
Fervent prayers to God - as I have proven above are not "vain repetitions".
They are pleasing to God.
Learn to know the difference . . .
Excellent post. Our separated brethren seem to miss a lot of the of the scriptures they claim to know so well.
I shared what I thought was edifying, Sir.
The two versions have the same meaning. Posting "taint so" over and over does not move the ball.
Please do not lump my view with that of Y1. Here is what I said:
The meaning of both versions is the same. Rote repetition is unbiblical, and advocates twist scripture.
Nothing in your post addresses either of my points.
I sorry but rote repetition of memorized phrases is not worship or prayer. We must speak from our own hearts to God with love and devotion.
What is "Rote" about repetitious prayer??
You are implying that a person cannot pray repetitiously without it being "mechanical" or "robotic" - which is absolutely FALSE. I have presented several Biblical examples to support the Catholic position.
YOU, on the other hand have NOT refuted a single example.
I lumped your objections with those of @Yehua1 because you are BOTH wrong.
Interesting that you use the word "rote" as its meaning is:
1: the use of memory usually with little intelligence --learn by rote
2: mechanical or unthinking routine or repetition
and I will mention this - I feel the same way about reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every day.
Before I go on - I am one of the most patriotic guys you would ever meet.
But let me ask you this - what do you get out of reciting the Lords Prayer? Or is it just a feel good thing.
Myself - I prefer to get in and study the meat of the passage.
First of all - I didn't use the term, "rote". I merely commented on @Van's incorrect use of the word term for ALL repetitious prayer.
As for what I "get out" of the Lord's Prayer - as Catholics, we are not just taught "mechanical" prayers. We are taught to meditate on the words and on the Scripture that many of them are related to. When I recite the Lord's Prayer or the "Glory Be" or any other prayer - I fully understand what I am saying.
God doesn't only listen to extemporaneous prayers, nor does Scripture teach this.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I think this is another example of the folly in starting a religion using another religion’s Scriptures. The reason a thread like this would even be started and Protestants would be questioning praying THE LORD'S PRAYER is because one lacks the context in which the Scriptures were written: The Tradition of the Church. The Scriptures reflect the living faith of the Church. The practice of the faith from its infancy demonstrates the Protestant attack on praying the Lord’s prayer is demonstrably fallacious.
Matthew 6:7-8 —> And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases (βατταλογήσητε) as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven…”
The words many Protestant translations use for “vain repetition” is βατταλογήσητε. It means to stammer, repeat the same thing over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, to prate.
—> Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.
Immediately after Jesus warns against βατταλογήσητε He goes on to teach the Apostles what would immediately become the most quoted and prayed Scripture passage in all of history. It is the most quoted and prayed Scripture passage in history because it is repeated in the central act of worship for Christians from the Church's infancy: The liturgy. The Church's earliest liturgies, dating to the first century and forward, ALL contain the Lord's Prayer. It is the perfect communal prayer. This practice was not just in the West or the East, but universal in ALL liturgies. Notice also the address is "Our" Father and not "My Father". Hence implicit in this prayer of our Lord's is community.
The only reason to question or refuse to pray this prayer given by the Lord would be if one was starting something new, severing the living faith of the Church for the past 2000 years.
Matthew 6:7-8 —> And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases (βατταλογήσητε) as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven…”
The words many Protestant translations use for “vain repetition” is βατταλογήσητε. It means to stammer, repeat the same thing over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, to prate.
—> Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.
Immediately after Jesus warns against βατταλογήσητε He goes on to teach the Apostles what would immediately become the most quoted and prayed Scripture passage in all of history. It is the most quoted and prayed Scripture passage in history because it is repeated in the central act of worship for Christians from the Church's infancy: The liturgy. The Church's earliest liturgies, dating to the first century and forward, ALL contain the Lord's Prayer. It is the perfect communal prayer. This practice was not just in the West or the East, but universal in ALL liturgies. Notice also the address is "Our" Father and not "My Father". Hence implicit in this prayer of our Lord's is community.
The only reason to question or refuse to pray this prayer given by the Lord would be if one was starting something new, severing the living faith of the Church for the past 2000 years.
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Walpole
Well-Known Member
My post is directed at those Protestants such as yourself who object to reciting the prayer given by the Lord Himself.
---> Repeating the Lords Prayer
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Repeating just the part, "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Will never be in vain no matter if that is all humanity does every second of the rest of their lives.
May even change what was written 1900+ years ago? It will not change God's plan, but it may change Satan's.
But knowing humanity, it will not happen.
Jonah did God's will eventually. The whole of Nineveh did God’s will, and God used a pagan nation to punish Israel. No telling what would happen if all the humans on earth prayed for God's will, and did not stop until God’s will was done. If there was one human who did that until God’s will was done. God knows what would happen.
May even change what was written 1900+ years ago? It will not change God's plan, but it may change Satan's.
But knowing humanity, it will not happen.
Jonah did God's will eventually. The whole of Nineveh did God’s will, and God used a pagan nation to punish Israel. No telling what would happen if all the humans on earth prayed for God's will, and did not stop until God’s will was done. If there was one human who did that until God’s will was done. God knows what would happen.
Hi MarysSon, I see you think questioning the understanding and intelligence of others supports your view. You have failed to support your view that mindless rote repetition is valued by God. OTOH God says we must use our mind in prayer.
Isaiah 29:13-14
Then the Lord said,
“Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their [fn]reverence for Me ]consists of tradition learned by rote,
Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”
Except I am not a Protestant
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