Repentance

Many times we are afraid of calling a shoe a shoe. LOL.

I know some like to say we can't judge others whether they are Christian or not, but Jesus Himself told us to '...judge righteous judgment.' We must look at the Scripture and see if the person's actions are lining up with what the Word of God says a Christian is. If not, there is a good indication that the person is not saved.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:20)

 

With this quote I agree.

 

The question I am concerned with is "were you sorry that you had sinned against God", when you repented, regardless of the sin, but when you realized that you was a sinner?

 

This makes sense to me. I have to go along with the idea that they were saved, even though imperfect. If they weren't believers then why would they have shared ANY of their possesions with the others?

 

Psa 38:18For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

 

Good example for all, being the Lord said "Oh ye backsliding Israel, return unto me".

 

I changed some words so it would fit this post so it is not really cross posting. I think you would be allowed to use one of John Calvin's sermons in more than one thread if it called for it, as in this case.
You have the same subject going in two places also.

I don't see John Wesley's sermon as Nausem.

I need to go read the rule and see if it includes sermons of such people as John Wesley.

I checked and it says the same "message", I don't know if that includes sermons of people like Wesley or not. I did change words some but not much, so it is not exactly the same. Just to make sure, I removed it, I don't want to break the rules.

 

Unless of course your "bible" version is Wesley's.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/wesley_NT/

 

This is my first post for quite a while. Thanks to all who prayed for our family in the loss of our son Matthew a little over 13 months ago. There is nothing that I have yet encountered in my life, or in the lives of others that compares to the sorrow of burying your children, except perhaps burying them with the knowledge that they did not know the Lord Jesus. Thankfully, Matthew’s faith was evident and has been a great comfort. For those who do not know us and would like to know about his illness and homegoing, go to MatthewPrince.net...

Here is a summary statement on "Repentance" in regard to salvation. I began the study of repentance while in college in 1974. I have spent many many many hours working through the meanings of metanoia, metanoew, metamellomai, and ametamelatos, the four Greek words translated "repent..." in the NT.

Repentance, as a condition for salvation, is not a turning from sin or a grief and sorrow over sin. These elements are present in passages that speak of a believer repenting, but never present in passages which speak of an unbeliever repenting and trusting Christ. The word that is always used in passages relating to saving faith means to change the mind. Unbelievers must change their mind and recognize that they are sinners and totally without the capacity to do anything to save themselves. They must turn from reliance on self-effort and fully trust in the sufficiency of the death of Jesus on the cross. They could not turn from sin, it is both within and without. Some people are joyful at learning of God’s grace in providing salvation. If repentance for salvation required an overwhelming sorrow over sin, one would have to say that a person who was focused on the grace and mercy of God at the moment of salvation was therefore not saved. Some may experience a deep conviction of sin, but this is not what saves them. Salvation comes as a result of their faith in the total sufficiency of Christ’s death on the cross.

In reading this thread I have noted a fair amount of discussion concerning being sorry for one’s sins, or even for one’s sinful state. THIS IS NOT REPENTANCE! As DHK has consistently emphasized, repentance is a "change of mind" when speaking of salvation. It is not a "turning from sin" or a "turning from a sinful lifestyle". Can children be saved? What if they have no great sins? What if the worst they have ever done was to disobey their parents? Should they experience a great conviction of terrible sin?

Does the Holy Spirit convict of specific sins (reprove, convince - Gk elegchw - w=omega, long oh sound) - What saith the Scripture? John 16:8-11 "8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit convicts unbelievers of the sin of UNBELIEF. In reality that is the only sin that will send a sinner to hell. He may burn hotter depending on the number and degree of his sins, but his loss or salvation is determined purely on the basis of whether or not his name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life (Rev 20:11-15). No one goes to hell because of their sins. They go to hell because they have not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Interesting, I did not see that anyone on this thread mentioned that John does not use any form of the word "repent" anywhere in his gospel. He simply says things like:

John 1:12-13 - 12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:16-18 – 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 – 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 – 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Why is a person condemned? Because they were not sorry for their sins? Hardly! Rather it is due to their failure to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I find it a little hard to swallow that there are people who call themselves Baptists and yet believe that a person once saved, can be lost! The "security of the saints" is a foundational Baptist belief! The belief that you can lose it, is a Wesleyan concept, not Baptist, at least not historical Baptist. The umbrella has gotten too big when a person who does not believe in the security of the saints fits comfortably under the designation "Baptist" – IMHO, of course.

One other thought is that more people need to repent of their own self-righteousness than their sin. Very few people believe that sin is OK, in my experience. Many people believe that their efforts at self-righteousness can somehow commend them before the Lord. That was the problem with the Jews. When Peter told the Jews at Pentecost "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), he was not preaching to a sinful crowd, but to righteous crowd. These were the most zealous people on earth as far as human righteousness was concerned. When the rich young ruler told Jesus, "all these have I kept from my youth up", Jesus did not question the reality of the fact that as far as men were concerned, he was indeed righteous. The Jews in Acts 2 needed to repent because they thought that their righteousness was sufficient to gain them entrance into heaven – they needed to repent of THEIR OWN righteousness and trust in the righteousness which is by faith in Jesus Christ. Philp 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" The righteousness which is of the law can never save!

When Jesus told the Jews, "Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5) the problem was that they thought they were righteous. The believed the Galilaeans who Pilate had slaughtered and the eighteen in Siloam who were killed when the tower fell were evil sinners who deserved God’s judgement. By contrast they believed themselves righteous. Jesus said, "NO, UNLESS YOU CHANGE YOUR MINDS (about righteousness) YOU WILL ALL PERISH!" (my own paraphrase) The problem was that they believed they were righteous and therefore they were lost. The sinners who know they are lost can come to Christ much easier than those who believe themselves to be righteous. Hence, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mat 9:13).

Personally I find it to be the epitome of arrogance to believe that my own pitiful attempts at righteousness can either GET me saved, or KEEP me saved. I am depending on His Grace, not my works. To believe that I have some part in keeping myself saved is to trust in the sufficiency of my own righteousness – and that is a WORKS BASED SALVATION that Paul calls an accursed message (Gal 1:8). He could not have used any stronger language to condemn a message that exalts human effort as opposed to divine sovereign grace.

Oh, well that is my first salvo across the bow for quite some time now. Let’s see if the course of this discussion is in any way altered or if this ship continues to plow ahead on the same tack!

 

To add my voice to the pile...

Just a personal reflection on my own conversion after reading these posts, is that I never remember being sorry for my sin until AFTER I was born again. I remember distincly become aware that I had sinned and broken God's Law, in a few particulars, but not every single transgression. My conception of right and wrong was completely upside down before I knew Jesus. What He called good I called evil, and what He called evil I called good.

I remember coming to an understanding (after I had read the Gospel presented in a book) that I had sinned, not just with drugs, but that I and my friends were doing evil (evildoers) and following satan. In the midst of those feelings I started to turn from my sin, but not completely because I could not. i.e. I wanted to get rid of all my marijuana, so I smoked it al up at once with my friends. (don't laugh, its true).

Then, in a moment, I was born again. Jesus caused me to be born again and I believed on Him. There was alot going on in my mind in thinking about Jesus, sin, and the devil. But I assure you, God came inside me and changed me into another man. I had no idea what happened to me until I read the NT. I did know that God had done something to me, and that this Almighty God is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

 

1. For me, there was a conviction of sin and my need for the Savior in whom I trusted for salvation. Apart for this, I do not know, except to say that God did a number on me.

2. But then we have Scripture to read and to fill in the blanks.

 

Well, I understand how the Calvinst are going to answer. They don't want to acknowledge having anything before Regeneration. I can't speak for others, I was sorry I sinned against God and was really in a terrible condition until I felt the load lifted from my shoulders. Then I was "free" and felt then and now, that I am on a Kings highway, and on my way to heaven.

BBob,

 

Bro Bob,


Though I understand the "Calvinist" position on regeneration I am never fully comfortable taking that label. I am, however, very comfortable with acknowledging that as a sinner I was "dead in trespasses and sins" and unable to come to God without having been drawn by the Father (Eph 2:1,5; John 6:44). The precise order of hearing the Word, conviction, regeneration, conversion, etc may be debated ad infinitum ad nauseum. The real issue is not what Calvin, Arminius, Spurgeon, Wesley, Hodge, Ladd, or others believed and taught. Rather, the issue at heart, as I am sure we would all agree, is "what saith the Scriptures" (Rom 4:3).


My objection with making "sorrow over sin" a prerequisite to salvation is that although that may be the dominant emotion that some may experience at, or prior to their salvation, "sorrow over sin" is not a Biblical requirement for salvation – BELIEVING FAITH IS. Whatever our definition of "repentance unto salvation" it must fit consistently with EVERY Biblical account of true conversion AND it must also fit with EVERY personal account of true conversion. The fact that one person may have experienced a genuine sorrow for having committed murder prior to his/her salvation does not make that specific sorrow normative for all conversions. If we define repentance unto salvation in a way that includes "sorrow over sin" we have defined salvation in more narrow terms than what we find in Scripture.


Of course David felt sorrow over his sin – he was a believer and under the conviction of the Holy Spirit over his very specific sins, which incidentally, were WILLFUL (not sure what you mean by your signature, but if you mean that a willful sin can make you lose it, the passage then teaches that you can NEVER get it back!). He made some very deliberate and calculated choices in his sin, would we say that he "lost" his relationship with God? I hope not, David did not pray for a restoration of his salvation, but rather that God would restore the joy of his salvation (Psa 51:12). His feeling that he may lose the Holy Spirit does not in any way demonstrate that such was a real possibility, only that he genuinely felt he may lose the Spirit. Moses spoke of God blotting his name of the book, that does not mean that it could have happened, only that Moses did indeed express that thought.



For the rest of us,


Every word of Scripture is accurate, but NOT every word of Scripture is true. God told Adam and Eve, "Eat the fruit and you will surely die". Satan said, "You shall not surely die". It is accurate that Satan said that, but HE LIED, therefore that phrase, though accurately recorded is not true! It is true that he said it, but what he said was not true.


Further to take OT examples of repentance and salvation and use them to support one’s view of repentance and salvation fails to account for the fact that although both OT and NT saints are saved on the basis of their faith, the content of that faith differs vastly! Abraham believed God would be faithful to His promises in Gen 12,15,17, etc. Abraham did not believe that Jesus would die on the cross for the sins of all ages and thereby provide a way for his sins to be taken away once and for all. It is wrong to take ANY PRE-CROSS account of salvation and make it the standard for salvation after the cross. The gospel that John the Baptist preached was not the gospel of the cross. The gospel of the kingdom that the apostles preached when Jesus sent them forth was not the gospel of the cross. The 12, or at least the 11, did not have much understanding of the concept of the cross until after the fact. It is therefore wrong to improperly apply some of the passages speaking of kingdom discipleship in a manner that adds works to salvation. They did not believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus because it had not happened yet. Further, the 12 were quite opposed to Jesus going to Jerusalem to suffer many things at the hands of chief priests, rulers, and Romans. They had no concept of how His death would bring about salvation. To pull a passage out of context willy nilly and make it normative for salvation in this age of grace, the times of the Gentiles, is to mishandle and wrongly divide the Word of Truth.


Yes, all Scripture is for us and we may learn thereby. But, not all Scripture applies to us in the same manner. There are some promises and commands that are to Israel and for Israel. It is wrong to make them normative for church-age believers. The law was not given to the Gentiles, it was given to the Jews. Most of the OT covenants are not with the Gentiles, they are with the Jews. Failure to rightly divide in this regard leads to all kinds of problems in many areas of theology, not only in our soteriology but in our ecclesiology and eschatology as well.


2Tim 2:15 – "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (KJV)