Repentence and the elect

Well, then, how about her husband Ahab? Was he saved?

 

Hello Salamander,

I was not attempting to enter the discussion, I was merely pointing out that Jezebel was not an Israelite.

However, since you asked, I'll jump in to the thread for the time being.

There is no where that I am aware of where Jezebel was offered the chance to repent.

Now, I realize you quoted Revelation 2:21 and that may be where you are taking your "offer of repentance" from.

Hermeneutically, this is a non-sequitur argument. The revelation passage is not referring directly to the historical Jezebel (of Ahab & Jezebel). Rather, the revelation passage is referring either to a person or a group of persons that were acting in a similar way to the Jezebel of the Old Testament. I believe the term for this linguistic tool is called "Simile."

Most likely the "Jezebel" of revelation is a person who is a church member or at least calls himself/herself a Christian (note the word "tolerate" written to a church.) The people of the church of Thyatira did not distance themselves from her through some type of disciplinary action.

I would argue the Revelation passage in conjunction with the historical Jezebel actually argues against your non-election position (at least the Calvinist's take on election). Here's why:

1. The historical Jezebel was not an "elect" Jew and proved herself to be such by her actions.
2. The Revelation Jezebel is showing "herself" to be something other than a Christian through her actions.
3. Just as every member of Israel was not Israel (Romans 9:6), every member of the visible church is a Christian (note the Sheep and Goats of Matthew 25)
4. God keeps for Himself true believers in both groups. This is most notably seen in 1 Kings 19:18 where God tells Elijah that God will leave 7,000 in Israel who have not bowed to Baal.

Further, a non-election position or a "foreseen faith" position discounts two great Old Testament examples of God's purposes of election--Abraham (who was an idol worshiper before God called him) and Israel (because did not offer the "Chosen" nation status to any other nation).

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Well...

I'm glad someone is keeping tabs on me. :sleeping_2: Sorry. I was thinking of Esther.

skypair

 

Very well said Salamander.

 

In the 122 Uses of Bachar in OT, never once used regarding electing to salvation

The most common word translated “chosen” in the Old Testament books is the Hebrew word bachar (baw-khar'). There appears to be two parallel ideas communicated by the use of this word: to choose and to test. The key word in the criterion of God’s choice is that God’s calling is “according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] makes the following comment on the meaning of this word:

“. . . [T]he word is used to express that choosing which has ultimate and eternal significance. On the one hand God chooses a people (Ps 135:4), certain tribes (Ps 78:68), specific individuals (I Kings 8:16; I Chr 28:5; I Sam 10:24; II Sam 6:21), and a place for his name (Deut 12:25; etc.). In all of these cases serviceability rather than simple arbitrariness is at the heart of choosing. Thus Yahweh chose Israel to be holy and thereby to serve as his witnesses among the nations (Duet 14:6).”

Therefore, the purpose of God’s choosing is service, ministry or, a specific task. The word always carries with it vocational connotations (not salvational; Eph. 4:1). This is the common usage throughout Scripture. Innumerable Scriptural examples bear testimony to this meaning and use. Since God selects certain groups and individuals for specific tasks, He can unselect them if they fail in His covenant requirements and He can then select others, or another, to fulfill His purpose. This is what happened with the Old (Mosaic) Covenant priesthood of Israel (Malachi chapter 2 and 3; compare Romans Chapter 11).

The first two uses of the word “chosen” in the Bible are used regarding the choice of Aaron as High Priest (Numbers 16:4) and God’s choice of the children of Israel (as a group) to be His chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:1-11). This common use in the OT would lead us to understand that this is the way the word “chosen” (election) is to be understood throughout Scripture. If this is true, we should be able to conclusively show that this is the common usage of the term and the common meaning.

The question we must ask ourselves is if, in God’s choice of the nation of Israel, their salvation is implied or presumed? We must also look at this as it unfolds in Scripture to see if salvation is implied or presumed in any recurrence (the Law of Recurrence). The use of the word “chosen” in the Old Testament books is almost always used to refer to the choice of groups, not individuals. The exception would be the references that refer to Messiah, individual prophets chosen by God, individual kings chosen by God or, Mary chosen by God to be the birth-mother of Jesus. The word “chosen” is also used in the Old Testament books to refer to the city of Jerusalem or Mt. Zion (Deut. 16:11). However, the word “chosen” is never used in the Old Testament books to refer to individuals elected to be saved.

The word “elect” in the Old Testament Scriptures is from the Hebrew word bachiyr (baw-kheer'). It is the Noun form of bachar (baw-khar') and is used of The Messiah (Isaiah 42:1) and the nation of Israel (descendents of Jacob; Isaiah 45:4; 65:9 and 65:22). It is never used to refer to someone chosen to be saved.

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke,The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament, Vol. I, Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, page 100

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . .” (II Thessalonians 2:13).

The context of II Thessalonians chapter two is the confrontation of the heresy that the resurrection (Rapture) had already taken place. This deceived the believers into thinking they had missed the rapture and the persecution they were suffering was part of God’s judgment upon the Christ rejecting nations of the world. Paul is reassuring them that this is not the case.

Secondly, the salvation Paul refers to here is not referring to salvation from eternal damnation in Hell, but part of the benefits of their salvation in deliverance from that time of God’s wrath upon the earth during the seven years of tribulation. Every Jew understood the connection to the coming of Messiah with the wrath of God upon Christ rejecters from many Old Testament prophecies and even in the proclamation of John the Baptist.

“7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:7-12).

The statements of Paul in II Thessalonians are an extension of his previous epistle to the Thessalonians regarding this same subject.

“6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God–ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (I Thessalonians 1:6-10).

 

You said:

And then you said:

And then you said:

Let's assume for the sake of argument that salvation can be divided the way you have it. If we say that believers are chosen to be raptured, does that make your statement wrong about "choosing" only refering to service, ministry, or spicific task?

Also, can they be chosen to be raptured, but not chosen to be saved?

 

Brother J.D.

The critical difference is that believers are chosen to be raptured (glorified), not unbelievers chosen to be saved from condemnation.

 

Dr. Ketchum, if believers are chosen to be raptured, are you willing to retract or modify your statement that "choosing" is only to service, ministry, or specific task?

 

Salamander,

There are many things to discuss here. I'll try to be brief, as it is very late (early) in the morning.

You wrote:

I must confess, I have no idea what you mean. Would you please explain further?

In this next section, I'm going to answer your responses in retrograde.

1 Kings 19:18 states: "Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

To my reference you replied:

No. This passage is clearly dealing with the people of Israel and not other nations. God is speaking directly to Elijah and some of the conversation does involve other nations. However, the direct reference to "Israel" and "Not bowed to Baal" show this passage to be dealing with Israel.

This passage also clearly shows that God is the one keeping a "remnant" for Himself. In this case (when Elijah thought he was the last believer) God reassures him that he is not alone--there are seven thousand believers besides Elijah! That is, indeed, good news, especially for Elijah.

We know that Israel is called "God's chosen." But we learn from Paul, in Romans 9, that not all Israel is Israel (which is to say there are unbelievers in National Israel) Romans, here, is clear. There were some people who, because of their unbelief, proved themselves to be unbelievers (through their actions). They might have been physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but they were not spiritual descendants of Abraham (see Romans 4)

Paul clearly makes a distinction between the Nation of Israel and the Spiritual Israel (the true heirs of Abraham). We might say that we have a visible Israel (the Nation as a whole) and an invisible Israel (those who are true believers--kept by God Himself for God Himself, per 1 Kings 19:18). In the same way, there is a visible church (all those who are members of a local church) and an invisible church (the true believers who, in addition to being members of the local church, are truly members, by faith, of the Universal Church).

Now, you stated:

And you illustrate my point and the biblical truth quite perfectly, although it was not your intention. I think you may have confused the visible and invisible church. Certainly non-believing church members (who were self-deceived and put on a good show for the rest of us) can be brought to true repentance and faith (thereby becoming part of the invisible church, the Universal Church). This process cannot work in reverse (which is to say a true member of the universal church cannot "progress" to be a "church member" since, biblically speaking, being a member of the local church assumes you are a true believer and are a member of the Universal Church).

In discussing Israel and Jezebel, you stated:

Certainly people of National Israel behaved like non-believers since they were non-believers. Many people of National Israel did not live up to God's standards. Many of the kings of Israel and Judah, for example, failed miserably (kings like Ahab).

Through their actions, they showed the fruit (if you will) of un-belief and therefore showed themselves to not be part of true or spiritual Israel.

And, generally speaking, the Gentiles were excluded. There are certainly noteable exceptions (like Rahab and Uriah), who responded to God in repentance and faith and left their people and became a part of the covenant community (and since God called Abraham while he was still an idol worshiper and He actively keeps a remnant for Himself, it can be assumed that God drew Rahab and Uriah to Himself and they responded).


In relation to the Revelation passage, you wrote:

The elect can sin, they can make grave errors, and they can (for a time) look like the world. Here's the catch, however. The elect, though they might sin, sometimes grossly, will never fully fall away. Why? Because like God's seven thousand who had not worshiped Baal, God keeps His remnant.

You went on to discuss the Revelation passage and you insist on your non-sequitur argument. There is no way, hermeneutically or textually, this passage is referring to the historical Jezebel. It simply is not possible.

Furthermore, you still have not answered my question about Israel being chosen. I'll ask again: How do you explain God choosing Israel (through Abraham) to the exclusion of the other nations?

Now, I am not asking what Israel's purposes was. For the sake of argument, their purpose can be discussed later. The main question here is what you seemed to miss in my last post (probably because I didn't explain it clear enough):

Israel was not God's last resort after the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Jebusites, or the Philistines rejected His offer to be His chosen nation, did they? Of course not. The other nations were not offered anything. Instead God sovereignly chose Israel to be the nation through which He would fulfill all His plans. How do you explain that?

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . .” (II Thessalonians 2:13).

If you want a text for a proof text (proof texting is a very bad way to build a systematic theology) of Calvinism's unconditional election of lost people to be saved from condemnation, you have chosen a text that does the opposite. First, it is written to a corportate group of believers (a local church). Secondly, these believers corporately are a body of believer priests (vocationally, now and in the Millennial Kingdom) to which the choosing refers. Thirdly, the "salvation" refers to their glorification (ultimate "sanctification of the Spirit"). Fourth, this chosing is CONDITIONED on faith ("through" the ultimate "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"). The fact of the matter is that this text does not say what you want it to say.

My earlier post was to provide a PATTERN in the OT of God's choosing. Never ONCE in the OT does God choose an individual to be saved from condemnation.

In fact, I think ample evidence can be provided that God chose certain individuals to use them for His "eternal purpose" who were not saved, and never got saved.

If there is no Scriptural evidence for God choosing ANYONE in all of the OT books to be saved from condemnation to Hell (all of history up to the Gospels), why would anyone read something different into the NT books?

Two questions must be answered from the context of God's choosing:

1. Who is it being chosen?
2. What is it they are being chosen for?
​

 

Lance,

You wrote:

How, then, do you explain Abraham?

Many Blessings (in your ministry too!)

The Archangel

 

Brother/Sister(?),
Obviously, Abram got saved. We know that from other portions of Scripture. However, God's "eternal purpose" in choosing Abram was not that of choosing a lost man to be saved. God's "eternal purpose" was a nation through which the "Seed" (not as of many, but as of One) would be born. No where are we told that Abram was chosen to be saved. His election to be the father of the nation of Israel and his salvation are separate issues and should not be confused with one another. He was not elected to be saved.

 

Lance,

I agree, to a point, that Abraham's salvation and the election of Israel as a Nation are separate issues. They are, however, not unrelated.

That Abraham was "chosen" by God is the issue I'm trying to get at here. From your above statement, I can see you agree that Abraham was chosen. Here is the bottom line: Why Abraham?

God chose Abraham (Abram) from Ur of the Chaldeans, we know this. Why, though, did God not choose "Fred from Rome of the Italians" (time issues not withstanding)?

What was it about Abraham? Certainly God wanted to and chose to make a special nation from him, but He could have done that through anyone (even our friend "Fred"), especially because the Nation itself was not named for Abraham or his promised son, but Jacob the second son.

If at all possible, I'd like to explore this question further.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

two post...see below

 

Hello Dr,

Take a look at this passage and tell me what you think...