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Featured "Reprehensible!" is not an argument

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Just in case you missed some of those verses which suggest that God is not out there making child molesters to molest children:

    “He is the Rock, His works are perfect, and all
    His ways are just. A faithful God who does no
    wrong, upright and just is He.”
    Deuteronomy 32:4

    “There is no one Holy like the LORD; there is
    no one besides You; there is no Rock like our
    God.”
    1 Samuel 2:2

    “As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the
    LORD is flawless….”
    Psalm 18:30

    “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; You
    cannot tolerate wrong….”
    Habakkuk 1:13

    “When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is
    tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by
    evil, nor does He tempt anyone….”
    James 1:13

    “This is the message we have heard from Him
    and declare to you: God is light, in Him there is
    no darkness at all.”
    1 John 1:5

    “…Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am
    holy.”
    Leviticus 19:2

    “Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I
    am the LORD your God. Keep My decrees and
    follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you
    holy.”
    Leviticus 20:7-8

    “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father
    is perfect.”
    Matthew 5:48

    “For God did not call us to be impure, but to
    live a holy life.”
    1 Thessalonians 4:7

    “Make every effort to live in peace with all men
    and to be holy; without holiness no one will see
    the Lord.”
    Hebrews 12:14

    “But just as He who called you is holy, so be
    holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy,
    because I am holy.”
    1 Peter 1:15-16

    They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. Jer. 32:35
     
    #61 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The Bible does not teach that. James doesn't use the word "even" which totally transforms the meaning of that verse.

    The fact that God does not tempt men to sin does not at all advance the idea that God never intended for men to sin.

    Are you recruting help from Winman?

    I know you are too intelligent to think his hermeneutic is REMOTELY useful.

    What are you doing here?

    He copies and pastes verse like they are going out of style that more often than not have NOTHING to do with what he is purporting.

    Don't stoop to that Skan.

    You are better than that.

    Boy, you are nasty today.

    What's wrong with you?

    I'm not remotely intimidated by this nonsense.

    I told you to start a thread on it and I'll meet you there.

    This thread rightly points out that your Jeffry Dalmer statements are pointed at emotionalism and not exegesis nor logic.

    Talk about that here and start another thread to talk about what you want to talk about so that you will not appear to be running from this subject by highjacking this thread to talk about the origin and problem of evil.

    This thread is about argument and what constitutes a sound one.

    This thread is not about theodicy.

    Don't highjack it. You are a moderator. Do better.:thumbs:
     
    #62 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Don't you mean 'determined for men to sin...and determined the tempter to tempt,' after all you are a hard determinist Luke. I'm sure when James was writing that he was thinking to himself, "God determines all sin and all temptations to unchangeably happen just as they happen, but I'll just tell the readers that God doesn't tempt men to sin, and allow them to deduce the rest."

    Sure.

    I simply remember him presenting several of the verses I quoted above in support of these views, so I referred to him. You don't need to demean him or dismiss his biblical arguments so flippantly. I'd put up his posts next to yours any day and compare the number of biblical references used. The point is, you were dismissing us as rejecting determinism for emotive reasons and I have proven that the reasons are biblical.

    Luke sounds like you'd rather try to once again make this personal by pretending as if I'm so sorry of a debater that I now have to appeal to help from another...poor little me. Why do you feel the need to do this? Just discuss the topic.

    Ad hom...

    Intimidated? What are you talking about? Do you think this is a street fight or a pi$$ing contest, Luke? I made an argument regarding the points you presented in the OP. Answer it or don't, but please don't make this personal or respond with such emotion.

    It about you dismissing our actual arguments [which have to do with the holiness of God, biblical revelation of his holiness, the one responsible for evil (the reprehensible stuff in the OP)] but you making them all about emotive appeals, when they aren't.
     
    #63 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    God speaking, states:

    They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. -Jer. 32:35
     
    #64 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    ."

    No Skan. He was thinking "God does not tempt men to sin so no one should say that he does."

    That's what he was thinking.

    He was not addressing theodicy AT ALL as you are trying to make him do.

    Sure.

    Yes, well coming across as an invincible debater being so important to you, aligning yourself with Winman's HORRIFIC hermeneutic and logic will UTTERLY undermine that.
    .

    [/QUOTE]

    No. It's about your raw appeal to emotion not to logic or Scripture.

    That's what it's about.
     
    #65 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    AND?????????

    So what???

    What do you think that verse is saying, Skan?

    How do you think it helps you?

    NOBODY ON EARTH THINKS GOD MAKES PEOPLE SIN.

    Not even the fiercest determinist says that.

    God can intend for them to sin, God can plan for them to sin, God can orchestrate circumstances so that they absolutely will sin without compelling them to sin against their will.

    What is your point???
     
    #66 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then why do you say that 'God does it' (God does all things) and then attempt to say that it is okay because he does it for the right reasons? That contradicts James, and even your own words above.

    You can claim to disagree with my interpretations of the text and you can claim to disagree with my logic, but you cannot rightly claim that I've not made both biblical and logical arguments against your deterministic claims about God doing 'reprehensible' things, as it is well documented that I have appealed to all of the above, not merely the emotive.

    These are established and provable facts Luke. Just read through some of our threads to see how many logical and biblical arguments I (and others) have posed in defense of my views and in response to yours. The fact that your view is so reprehensible, even to born again believers, certainly doesn't help your cause, but that is NOT nor has it EVER been the ONLY argument being made against your views Luke.
     
    #67 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Luke's View: God unchangeably determined that they do this detestable thing...

    God's View: It didn't even enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing.

    And you don't see the problem? Hmmmm

    :godisgood:
     
    #68 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Does what?

    Brings it to pass? He does. Nothing could be clearer.

    He does not tempt men to sin but he leads them into temptation when it suits him.

    Regardless, James was not addressing theodicy at all here. You ought to know better.

    .

    I have never said that you never employ exegesis or logic. I said that saying "Jeffry Dalmer... yadayadayada... uh NO!!" is not an argument.

    It is nothing but an appeal to emotion.

    [/QUOTE]

    Right- there you go again. Saying a bunch of people find it reprehensible is not an argument.

    This statement of your proves my point.
     
    #69 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Wait a second.

    God's view is that it never occurred to him???

    Is that what you just said???

    What do you think "it didn't even enter into my mind" means as it pertains to God?????
     
    #70 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I quoted God and held it up next to your view. Enough said.

    I think it means he is perfectly Holy and sinless and would never come up with (originate) reprehensible ideas like molesting children, or the evil being spoken of here. You think he not only came up with it (thought of it before they did) but unchangeably determined that they do it.

    Now, whose view should I believe? God's actual words or Luke's deterministic system? I'll have to pray about that....
     
    #71 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #72 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    #73 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #74 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I could not be any more clear about what God said and what I believe he meant. Your turn...or are you unwilling to provide your exegesis of this text?
     
    #75 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I need clarification.
    So it never occurred to God? Is that what you are saying? He did not know they were going to do it before they did it?
     
    #76 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why do you need clarifcation of my view to present your own? This is a discussion. A give and take. I gave my view and now its your turn.

    I don't like introducing new terms into the discussion (like 'occurred') because they may carry different connotations to each of us. I believe what he said. It didn't enter his mind. It didn't start with God. He didn't originate that detestable thing, they did. It's really that simple. You tell us what you think he meant now.

    Was I correct in my assessment earlier? "You think he not only came up with it (thought of it before they did) but unchangeably determined that they do it."
     
    #77 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    So God did not know for sure that they would do it, right?
     
    #78 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    It didn't enter his mind, right? That detestable thing didn't originate with God, right?

    We can both ask leading questions Luke but you aren't going to get out of providing your own exegesis of this passage.
     
    #79 Skandelon, Jan 12, 2013
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    But does that mean that God did not know for sure it was going to happen?

    Yes or no.

    Once again, as in the other thread, it is a simple yes or no answerable question.

    Yes or no?
     
    #80 Luke2427, Jan 12, 2013
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