"Reprehensible!" is not an argument

[Luke2427]

And I do not agree. Who indicated that "God was merely a puppeteer"? Are you suggesting this is what Doctrines Believers hold to?!? Please clarify your statement. Thank you.

No, puppeteer does not cover it.

The bible analogy has God MORE in control than a puppeteer is over his puppets.

The Bible analogy is God as potter and man as clay. The puppeteer pulls the strings which move the puppet. The potter has direct contact- nothing in between.

No grain of sand in the universe ever moves one atom's width in any direction more or less than Almighty God ever intended for it to move.

The exhaustive sovereignty of God is a fundamental teaching of the Scripture.

Those who deny it do so, not because of exegetical reasons, but because of emotional reasons.

 

[Revmitchell]

But where did you hear that from & is that your impression of a DoG believer...IE, this is what they believe?

If so, then in what doctrine does this come from?

Yes and it comes from a skewed understanding of the Sovereignty of God which leads to a skewed understanding of election which leads to a skewed understanding of grace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes and it comes from a skewed understanding of the Sovereignty of God which leads to a skewed understanding of election which leads to a skewed understanding of grace.

Then I respectively submit that either you dont understand doctrines of Grace or you have been fed a line of Bull.. There has been a few explanations Ive heard on the Forum, some bizarre & some rational as well as biblical. Please explain to me your understanding so we can at least come to a consensus. You achieve nothing by throwing rocks, which is what your doing by that commentary.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, puppeteer does not cover it.

The bible analogy has God MORE in control than a puppeteer is over his puppets.

Then Rick,I would suggest to you that you have not explained your beliefs adequately enough to get people to understand & accept....see Rev Mitchell's commentary.

 

[Revmitchell]

Then I respectively submit that either you dont understand doctrines of Grace or you have been fed a line of Bull.. There has been a few explanations Ive heard on the Forum, some bizarre & some rational as well as biblical. Please explain to me your understanding so we can at least come to a consensus. You achieve nothing by throwing rocks, which is what your doing by that commentary.

No I am not throwing rocks. It certainly was not intended to offend. I had no perception it would. God does not have to be in direct control of everything to be Sovereign.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes and it comes from a skewed understanding of the Sovereignty of God which leads to a skewed understanding of election which leads to a skewed understanding of grace.

So Rev, you mentioned Election & Grace. Got it.... so you have no problem with predestination....to clarify.

 

[Revmitchell]

So Rev, you mentioned Election & Grace. Got it.... so you have no problem with predestination....to clarify.

I would think that based on what I have said it would be understood that that view is skewed by reformed folks as well. I was not trying to create an exhaustive list.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hey you know what, I need to back out of this thread. I am not supposed to be here. I will be glad to discuss this down in the other denoms section.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No I am not throwing rocks. It certainly was not intended to offend. I had no perception it would. God does not have to be in direct control of everything to be Sovereign.

Please dont misunderstand.....It doesnt offend me personally since Ive heard it all before. But I want to provide the opportunity to you or anyone who views this to explain their understanding of Doctrines of Grace & get any misinformation corrected. And its an opportunity for me do get a better understanding of your prospectives as well.

 

[Luke2427]

Then Rick,I would suggest to you that you have not explained your beliefs adequately enough to get people to understand & accept....see Rev Mitchell's commentary.

God is Sovereign- period.

Not Sovereign Light.

Sovereign.

Not Sovereign in such a way that he is not sovereign- which is what non-cals purport. They seem to think liquid water can be dry and something can exist and not exist at the same time. This "God is so sovereign that he can let things happen totally apart from his control" is utterly nonsensical.

No...

Sovereign.

It's that simple.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke 2427, you posted...

The bible analogy has God MORE in control than a puppeteer is over his puppets.

The Bible analogy is God as potter and man as clay. The puppeteer pulls the strings which move the puppet. The potter has direct contact- nothing in between.

You left out something very important.


The God given FREE WILL of all of Gods people, regarding thier relationship with God.

God has never had puppets nor robots.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke 2427, you posted...



You left out something very important.


The God given FREE WILL of all of Gods people, regarding thier relationship with God.

God has never had puppets nor robots.

Yes, I left it out because it is mythological.

Respectfully I left out Pegasus as well.

 

[psalms109:31]

If you really want to comprehend God with the clay I do believe these scripture are essential to understand what matters is our actions at the message.

John 21:
The Beloved Disciple and His Book

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I left it out because it is mythological.

Respectfully I left out Pegasus as well.

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God is Sovereign- period.

Not Sovereign Light.

Sovereign.

Not Sovereign in such a way that he is not sovereign- which is what non-cals purport. They seem to think liquid water can be dry and something can exist and not exist at the same time. This "God is so sovereign that he can let things happen totally apart from his control" is utterly nonsensical.

No...

Sovereign.

It's that simple.

I agree that God is Sovereign. I would like you to explain your comment about "sovereign Light" however.

 

[Luke2427]

I agree that God is Sovereign. I would like you to explain your comment about "sovereign Light" however.

There is this weird type of sovereignty where God is only in control of the results; where he is in control in only an overarching way.

That is not DIVINE sovereignty.

A human king can only rule in an extremely limited manner.

The human king or sovereign is not the one commanding his subjects' hearts to beat.

Their lungs do not expand or contract by his power.

The atoms and subatomic particles of their bodies and the environments in which they dwell do not dance around by his sustaining design.

The synopses firing in their brain do not depend 100% upon energy that comes from him.

It is not his gravity that holds their feet to the earth securing them from being hurled into outerspace by the unfathomable centripetal force of a terrestrial ball spinning hundreds of miles per hour on its axis while hurdling through space at thousands of miles per hour.

So the human's sovereignty is at the very most "overarching". That is sovereign light.

He does not control the very EXISTENCE of his subjects.

God does.

Scripture says "In HIM we live and MOVE and have our being"

Scripture says "Of Him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS"

Scripture says "By him all things CONSIST (are held together)"



Sov’reign Ruler of the skies, Gracious, ever wise; All my times are in thy hand, All events at thy command.

His decree who form’d the earth Fix’d my first and second birth; Parents, native place, and time, All appointed were by him.

He that form’d me in the womb, He shall guide me to the tomb; All my times shall ever be Order’d by his wise decree.

Times of sickness; times of health; Times of penury and wealth; Times of trial and of grief; Times of triumph and relief;

Times the tempter’s power to prove; Times to taste the Saviour’s love All must come, and last, and end, As shall please my heavenly Friend.

Plagues and deaths around me fly; Till he bids, I cannot die; Not a single shaft can hit, Till the God of love sees fit.

John Ryland (1753-1825)

 

[Winman]

There is this weird type of sovereignty where God is only in control of the results; where he is in control in only an overarching way.

That is not DIVINE sovereignty.

A human king can only rule in an extremely limited manner.

The human king or sovereign is not the one commanding his subjects' hearts to beat.

Their lungs do not expand or contract by his power.

The atoms and subatomic particles of their bodies and the environments in which they dwell do not dance around by his sustaining design.

The synopses firing in their brain do not depend 100% upon energy that comes from him.

It is not his gravity that holds their feet to the earth securing them from being hurled into outerspace by the unfathomable centripetal force of a terrestrial ball spinning hundreds of miles per hour on its axis while hurdling through space at thousands of miles per hour.

So the human's sovereignty is at the very most "overarching". That is sovereign light.

He does not control the very EXISTENCE of his subjects.

God does.

Scripture says "In HIM we live and MOVE and have our being"

Scripture says "Of Him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS"

Scripture says "By him all things CONSIST (are held together)"



Sov’reign Ruler of the skies, Gracious, ever wise; All my times are in thy hand, All events at thy command.

His decree who form’d the earth Fix’d my first and second birth; Parents, native place, and time, All appointed were by him.

He that form’d me in the womb, He shall guide me to the tomb; All my times shall ever be Order’d by his wise decree.

Times of sickness; times of health; Times of penury and wealth; Times of trial and of grief; Times of triumph and relief;

Times the tempter’s power to prove; Times to taste the Saviour’s love All must come, and last, and end, As shall please my heavenly Friend.

Plagues and deaths around me fly; Till he bids, I cannot die; Not a single shaft can hit, Till the God of love sees fit.

John Ryland (1753-1825)

Then how did the Jews sacrifice their children to idols in Jeremiah? God clearly tells us that he did not command the Jews to do this, so how did it happen?

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Did God lie when he said he did not command the Jews to commit this sin? How did this sin occur if God did not command it?

Try answering this question for once, I have asked you this at least half a dozen times and you have NEVER even attempted to answer.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then how did the Jews sacrifice their children to idols in Jeremiah? God clearly tells us that he did not command the Jews to do this, so how did it happen?

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Did God lie when he said he did not command the Jews to commit this sin? How did this sin occur if God did not command it?

Try answering this question for once, I have asked you this at least half a dozen times and you have NEVER even attempted to answer.

This has been answered several times ,yet you fail to grasp the answer.Do not say it was not answered.

 

[Winman]

This has been answered several times ,yet you fail to grasp the answer.Do not say it was not answered.

It has not been answered in the past, and you have not answered it now.

How did the Jews sacrifice their children to idols if God never commanded it, and this sin did not come into his mind?

If you are not going to answer, then mind your own business.

 

[Iconoclast]

It has not been answered in the past, and you have not answered it now.

How did the Jews sacrifice their children to idols if God never commanded it, and this sin did not come into his mind?

If you are not going to answer, then mind your own business.

Why Lie??? I answered this twice in one thread about 2-3 weeks ago...remember ... when you were calling me names?
Oh wait...you do that on every post now:laugh:

I pointed out how your response was completely un scriptural and un biblical.

So....it is my business to deal with impudent persons like you whenever you spue your vileness toward me....