Required Setting for Day of the Lord

[KenH]

The only way to come to this conclusion is to assume that Revelation was written before 70 AD.

Not so, brother.

 

[LeBuick]

npetreley, what makes you so sure the rapture is post trib? I'm not finding your scriptoral support here.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The only way to come to this conclusion is to assume that Revelation was written before 70 AD. I think you'll find that position extremely difficult to defend.

That is not so. One could come to that conclusion if they assume that Jesus taught about the End Times on the Mount of Olives before AD 70. I think you will find that is an extremely easy position to defend. I think the error of most Premill Hagee types is their assumption that ignores the context of all the prophecies of the Comings of the Lord and Days of the Lord throughout the entire Bible Old and New and says that it all points to one final catastrophic event that will end the world. This is demonstrably in error.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[npetreley]

People tend to rely on internal evidence to support a pre-70 AD composition of Revelation. But this so-called internal evidence is based on pre-conceived notions. For example, they say that the temple in Chapter 11 refers to the pre-70 AD temple, and the temple was destroyed around 70 AD. But that's a presupposition, not evidence. There's no reason why this could not refer to a future temple.

External evidence close to the date of composition says otherwise, and it is not based on any presuppositions. Irenaeus said it was written toward the end of Domitian’s reign, which puts it at sometime around 95 AD.


​

 

[Ed Edwards]

The only way to come to this conclusion is to assume that Revelation was written before 70 AD. I think you'll find that position extremely difficult to defend.

Amen, Brother Npetreley -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

npetreley, what makes you so sure the rapture is post trib? I'm not finding your scriptoral support here.

That's because I haven't given any.

Honestly, that would take a lot of time and effort, but the short version is this:

1. Scripture says we are not appointed to wrath
2. Scripture says we will suffer tribulation
3. Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation
4. The Day of the Lord is the beginning of the outpouring of God's wrath
5. Matthew 24 clearly states that the Day of the Lord occurs immediately after the great tribulation, and wraps the event with the angels gathering the elect.
6. Revelation describes the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Immediately after the signs, but BEFORE the outpouring of wrath, John sees a multitude of people in heaven from every nation, tribe, etc. He is told that they have come out of the great tribulation.

I would not call my position post-trib, even though that is perfectly accurate. People think of post-trib as having to occur at the very end of the 70th week. But the great tribulation is cut short, which means the great tribulation ends BEFORE the end of the 70th week. How much before is something we don't know.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

People tend to rely on internal evidence to support a pre-70 AD composition of Revelation. But this so-called internal evidence is based on pre-conceived notions. For example, they say that the temple in Chapter 11 refers to the temple, and the temple was destroyed around 70 AD. But that's a presupposition, not evidence. There's no reason why this could not refer to a future temple.​

Well, actually, unless you are going to play allegorical word games with the words of Jesus, there is one really good reason why this could not refer to a future temple PRIMARILY.

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Link

Enter Premill Shuffle Below.

Joseph Botwinick:wavey:​

 

[Ed Edwards]

... I think the error of most Premill Hagee types is their assumption that ignores the context of all the prophecies of the Comings of the Lord and Days of the Lord throughout the entire Bible Old and New and says that it all points to one final catastrophic event that will end the world. This is demonstrably in error.

That is right.

The other serious assumption is that a Triune God is going
to have one and only one Judgement for everybody at
one time: saint & sinner alike. In fact, there are dozens of
judgements mentioned in the Bible.

----------------------------
Here is my Evangelistic JUDGEMENT writing:
----------------------------


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque
----------------------------

 

[npetreley]

Yes, Jesus said the existing temple would be destroyed, and it was. This does not preclude the possibility that another temple will be built. There was a temple BEFORE the 70 AD temple. Why not one after?

By the way, I have no idea what Hagee and Lehaye teach, so you'll lose me if you refer to them.

​

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yes, Jesus said the existing temple would be destroyed, and it was. This does not preclude the possibility that another temple will be built. There was a temple BEFORE the 70 AD temple. Why not one after?​

By the way, I have no idea what Hagee and Lehaye teach, so you'll lose me if you refer to them.​

Ed and NPetreley,


So, you agree that the events of the End Times are not a one time event that ends all events in the course of human history? I agree with you.:thumbs:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: //1. Scripture says we are not appointed to wrath//

This is a pretribulation rapture MAJOR point
God's wrath = tribulation for the ungodly

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18, 5:1-5:11 is the Great Pretribultion
Rapture Passage of the Bible. It calles the Pretribulation rapture
(the one that really does come like a thief in the night) the
"Day of the Lord".

Npetreley: //2. Scripture says we will suffer tribulation//

Yes it does. Jesus Himself said that. See my FIVE TRIBULATIONS
writing.

Npetreley: //3. Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation//

Your assumption leads to error.
Try assuming: The Wrath of God = tribulation for the ungodly

Npetreley: //4. The Day of the Lord is the beginning of the outpouring of God's wrath//

Yep! And the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18, 5:1-5:11
(you know, the passage that says to COMFORT ONE ANOTHER
not just once but TWICE) is the pretribulation rapture.

God's wrath = tribulation Period
God's great wrath = Great Tribulation Period
God's final wrath on the evil = eternal damnation in hell

Part of the tribualation we are subject to is the wrath of man.
We Christians NEVER ever have to suffer the Wrath of God.

Npetreley: //5. Matthew 24 clearly states that the Day of the Lord occurs immediately after the great tribulation, and wraps the event with the angels gathering the elect.//

Check around at my post, That isn't real clear.
(of course, some people don't recognize the literary device: the polysendeton 'and'.
Strange itsn't it, a prophecy using a literary device to convey information.
In fact, the 'day of the Lord' in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18, 5:1-5:11
is the pretribualtion rapture which starts the Tribulation Period.

Npetreley: //6. Revelation describes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.
Immediately after the signs, but BEFORE the outpouring of wrath,
John sees a multitude of people in heaven from every nation,
tribe, etc. He is told that they have come out of the great tribulation.//

"out of" here means 'escaped from'.
'I made good grades so I came out of the final test.'
I never was in the final test, I escaped from the final
test by having good grades before the final test.

Uh BTW, if all these saved people died in the great tribulation period,
which saved persons are beside the 144,000 are protected during the great tribulation period?

 

[LeBuick]

Ed and NPetreley,


So, you agree that the events of the End Times are not a one time event that ends all events in the course of human history? I agree with you.:thumbs:

Joseph Botwinick

I agree here also, but I have always believed the end times was also the beginning of time. It is the end of the reign of satan but is the beginning of the reign of Christ. Then there will be a later period when GOD the father comes to the earth. Let me think of How I came to this conclusion.

I admit escatology was my weakest subject and that was 20 or more years ago.

Ok, I was around Dan 7:21,22. Zech 14:1-7 and Tit 2:11 - 15

 

[KenH]

which puts it at sometime around 95 AD.

I agree with you on that.

 

[npetreley]

Your assumption leads to error.
Try assuming: The Wrath of God = tribulation for the ungodly

I will assume no such thing. This is YOUR error. The great tribulation is FOLLOWED by the Day of the Lord's wrath. The Bible differentiates the two quite clearly.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds [the rapture], from one end of heaven to the other.

Parallel passage in Revelation:

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The great tribulation is FOLLOWED by God's wrath. They are not the same thing.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

That was the order in which the questions were asked.

Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

Here is the question & the scripture in the order events come down:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must

come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and

pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my

names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world,
for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? (world should be 'age')

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth
foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also
the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what
watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that

(if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert,
goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto
the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne
be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from
heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds
of heauen, with power and great glory.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Edwards

Your assumption leads to error.
Try assuming: The Wrath of God = tribulation for the ungodly

Npetreley: //I will assume no such thing. This is YOUR error.
The great tribulation is FOLLOWED by the Day of the Lord's wrath.
The Bible differentiates the two quite clearly.//

Quote:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds (the rapture), from one end of heaven to the other.

Yes, brother Npetreley, we are all using the same scripture.
But you are reading it different than me.
You are NOT debating me, not bringing any new arguments forward,
not destroying my arguments -- no you are not doing this by reapeating
the scripture.

Here, I'll help you

Written by Ed for Npetreley

How dense can you get Bro. Ed?
That isn't what 'Polysyndeton' means at all.
Your pastor is completely wrong in what he told you
Polysyndeton is and his professor at the Oklahoma Baptist
University of full of 'it'. There is no what that
POLYSYNDETON is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline - if there were, wouldn't dictionary.com
have told me so?
Anyway, couldn't an omni-Potent God have had Matthew
get a compter with Microsoft Word on it, so he could have
outlined better?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: //The great tribulation is FOLLOWED by God's wrath.
They are not the same thing.//

I've defined what I think the Bible means by 'tribulation'
(three kinds) and the Tribulation Period and the
Great Tribulation Period. Feel free to write an essay
cluing us in on what 'God's wrath' means. Thank you.

-------------------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16

-------------------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

'Tribulation' definitions 1-5 refers to the previous post:

-------------------------------------------------

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley after posting Matthew 24:29-31:
//Parallel passage in Revelation:

(Bolding by ed):

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like
blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is
shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and
every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth,
the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free
man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the
mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne
and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is
able to stand?”//
Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out
of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great
earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and
so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations
fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the
wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the
weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the
plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".
In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".
The Rev 16 earthquake is probably 1,000 to 10,000 times
as potent as the Rev 6 earthquake.
(I'd say the Rev 6 earthquake would be like one million
type 8 (compare type 8 to the Sanfrancisco earthquake of 1906)
Earthquakes all at the same time. So the Rev 6
earthquake is Force 14, the Rev 16 eathquake Force 17 to 18.

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

 

[LeBuick]

Ed, If the number of words you post proves your side of the discussion then you clearly win. I unfortunately have ADD and don't benefit from your long post.

Ca you directly respond to verse Mt 24:21 and Rev 6:12. The other guy contends this clearly proves a post trib rapture.