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Featured Researching apostles...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    NO they did not! THe original 12 did..but as I explained above...they were not the only ones! Jesus called them before the ascension! Eph. says apostles were given AFTER Jesus ascended!



    This ignores vv. 21-22 where Paul refers to the superstructure as under construction, so to speak, as he speaks/writes (note the consistent use of the present tense in vv. 21-22). In other words, the apostles of v. 20, among whom was Paul, were also contributing to the superstructure, of which the Ephesians were a contemporary part, simultaneous with their laying the foundation on which it was being built.

    To use an analogy, once a man establishes a company, writes its by-laws, articulates its vision, hires employees, and does all the work essential in laying the foundation for its future work and productivity, he does not necessarily cease to exist or to serve the company in other capacities. As Jack Deere points out, "the founding director of a company or corporation will always be unique in the sense that he or she was the founder, but that does not mean the company would not have future directors or presidents".

    The argument is that once apostles ceased to function foundationally, they ceased to function altogether, as if the only purpose for apostles was to lay the foundation of the church. But nowhere does the NT say this, least of all in Eph. 2:20. This text need say no more than that apostles and prophets laid the foundation once and for all and then ceased to function in that capacity. But nothing suggests that they ceased to function in other capacities, much less that they ceased to exist altogether. Certainly it is true that only apostles and prophets lay the foundation of the church, but it is anything but certain that such is the only thing they do.
     
  2. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I showed over and over that the purpose of writing the scriptures is not the only thing that the apostles are to do.

    Several of the apostles did not, in fact, write Scripture. Does this disqualify them from being apostles?
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, but what would modern day Apsotles do if NOT giving forth extra revealtion to us, writting it in books etc?

    And again, an Apostle as defined by the Lord himself, had to be among the 12, or one of his discliples, or have the risen chrsit appear to them!

    Who qualifys today for that?
     
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You can start with Post #44!

    I have explained this over and over! JEsus can still call out apostles the same as he called out Paul! Until you can show me a scripture stating otherwise...I believe God is not limited by our understanding or theology~
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Jesus can...."
    Yeah, Jesus can.... He can do anything. But he doesn't.
    Read the Lost Books of the Bible, not the Apocrypha, but the Lost Books.
    Jesus, as a child, made clay pigeons to fly. He "could do that." But did he?
    Can Jesus make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift?
    Jesus does not go against his nature neither does he go against his Word.
    He is not a genie in a bottle to be carried around in your pocket, and let go to do whatever you command him to do at your whim and wish. That is one of the "doctrines" of the Charismatic movement, especially the Third Wave. They think he works that way. They command him at their will. He must obey them. Do you think God works that way? Is he at the very word of your every command.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus cannot violate Himself! the bible already contains ALl that god has to say to us for now, and He commissioned paul as his alst Apostle, the One unto the gentiles!

    Do you hold to the word of faith teaching that Jesus was NOT eternal God, but a man who learned how to use the Laws of faith, and shows us the way to use them?

    That even God MUST obey us if we confess and speak the right way, visualize the thing asked for etc?
     
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    And you are the authority on what he does and does not do for today? I don't think so!
    Where have I said he is at my command? Where have I said he is a genie or even implied that he was???
    What you posted has nothing to do with the evidence of apostles for today!
    If he did it with Paul...he can do it with others!
     
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    No, I do not!
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    My last post, which you did not appreciate much, was directed to a similar statement as above. You are not getting it.
    "If God did..He can do..."
    The very premise of this statement is so very wrong.
    If God could speak to Moses in a burning bush, why can't he speak to you in one?
    If God allowed Peter to walk on water why doesn't he allow you? (Go ahead, try it).
    If God allowed Moses to have the power to bring the ten plagues upon Egypt, why doesn't he allow you to do it as a judgment upon America?
    If God allowed Jonah to be swallowed by a fish, maybe you will be also.
    If Joshua could command the sun to "stand still" why can't you?
    If Peter could heal thousands without exception as in Acts 5:16, why can't you?

    Your logic does not make sense.
    You should be as powerful as God if it were true. In fact you should be God yourself. Why not. Why not claim anything you want.
    Because: If God could, he would, wouldn't he???
     
  10. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The difference between our faith is that I will not say he will never do it again! I do not put limits where God does not put them..you do!
    I have not been ask to walk on water! Now who is claiming God is a genie???
    If God called me to...I could!! But he has not called me to do any of what you posted! But he did say he would send apostles, prophets etc. AFTER he ascended!

    I only claim what the Bible says! You on the other hand explain away or deny his power and what he is still capable of doing today! I have said nothing outside of what he said him self! He said he would send them and they will be here UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ....
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You claim more than what the Bible says, and then when challenged you back off and conveniently say that God didn't call you. That is really convenient for you. You tell me that God "could" but then simply say, He doesn't call you. How convenient for you to escape proving or demonstrating your baseless theology.

    God spoke to Moses through a burning bush; there is no evidence that He will ever speak to anyone else in that manner again. It was a historical event, as were all the other historical events I listed to you.

    God works in different ways at different times through different people.
    Moses was a unique individual. There will never be another Moses, or a man that was used like Moses or did the things like Moses.

    That is true for most of the prophets, and is definitely true for the Apostles of the NT. God gave to them the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They now have ceased, and ceased at the end of the first century with the end of the Apostolic Era.

    This is easy to demonstrate as I have many times before. There needs to be evidence. There was plenty of evidence in the church of Corinth that all the gifts were present.
    There is no evidence in ALL the world that the sign gifts are operative today. Don't blame unbelief. Take me to the evidence. Where is it happening. If there is no evidence there are no gifts. It is that simple.

    Therefore:
    1. Demonstrate for me anyone who has the gift of healing such as Peter had it in Acts 5:16.
    Thousands came to him. He didn't turn any away, but healed everyone of them, no matter what condition or disease they had--broken bones, blindness, and all. All were healed--thousands. Where does that occur today? Provide the evidence.

    2. Where does the Biblical gift of tongues occur? Why do missionaries have to go to language school? Why doesn't God simply give them the gift of languages and make it that much more simple to minister to people of other nations. Show me where that is happening today?

    3. Who has the legitimate gift of miracles today. Paul could perform signs and wonders, as could all the Apostles (Heb.2:3,4). Where are those that can actually perform true miracles, the supernatural, signs and wonders. Where are they?

    If you can't provide the evidence we know that these gifts have ceased just like the Bible said they would in 1Cor.13:8
     
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I only claim the truth! Sorry you can not accept it without the personal attacks!

    There is no evidence saying he will not either!

    We are all unique individuals! I agree God works in different ways at different times through different people...but we can not say that he CAN NOT do it again! I do not limit God!

    Your opinion that you can not backup with scripture!

    You have to have a sign before you believe! I believe the Word of God!

    Again! You have to see to believe!

    Why do you have to bring tongues up on every thread! It is not happening the way you say because you do not understand biblical tongues!

    THey are not around those that do not believe! You may never see one in your lifetime!

    I thought this thread was about the apostles! You are still hung up on the manifestations of the Holy Spirit!
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

    You don't find the evidence for the gifts of the Spirit today, as I challenged you, because they are signs of an Apostle, as Paul claims they are.
    The Apostles have died, and the gifts with them.
    Just believe; stop remaining in unbelief.
    As the gifts have ceased; so have the Apostles. They died by the end of the first century; their offices were never to be replaced.
    There will only be 12 names written on the foundations of the walls of the New Jerusalem.
     
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Well the apostles that are called AFTER the ascension will be as Paul...not one of the 12 names written on the foundation of the walls!

    You have to ignore The word AFTER to believe as you do!
     
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    YOu guys can continue to discuss the apostles if you like...I have stated my case with scriptures!

    I do not thing there is anything else to add or debate...so we can all rest in our conclusion of what the Scriptures say! Unless someone has something new to add!!
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There are 12 apostolic offices plus Paul whom God made a special dispensation for. As Paul testifies "he was as 'one born out of due time.'"
    God sent him as an apostle to the Gentiles. He was accepted as an Apostle by the Apostles. He rebuked other apostles as Peter. No other person could do that. He had authority in the Jerusalem council in chapter 15. He wrote 13 epistles, almost half of the NT. He went on three missionary journeys and established ca. 100 churches. In many of his epistles he identifies himself as an apostle, whereas the ones you refer to never identify themselves as an apostle, but are only indirectly referred to as such.
    There are 12 apostles and then there is Paul, "as one born out of due time." Accept it.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We also believe that God can do as he wills, but that there are NONE who have the gifts in themselves to heal/do miracles/signs/wonders as the Apsotles did!

    Does God still do at time a divine healing, yes,but in responseto prayers, and its Him doing it directly, not thru someone operating in a gift of healing!

    same way for a miraclem he can at times intevene and do that, but its ONLY when he chooses to, not based our faith command him too, or someone having that gift to do that!
     
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    NOthing new stated here that hasn't been discused before! I have never denied Paul being an apostle!

    My stand is still...if he could call Paul "as one born out of due time" he can call others and scriptures do not deny that he can.

    He sent apostles and prophets AFTER he ascended...so until you can get passed that...your doctrine is contradicted! The 12 original apostles were called out BEFORE the ascension! Paul is the only one recorded in scripture as called out AFTER the ascension...but Eph. is plain that he gave the church APOSTLES-plural AFTER the ascension!

    So you can take what the Word says or just agree to disagree on this subject!
     
  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    The apostles could not heal/do miracles/signs/wonders in THEMSELVES! IT was always and still is the power of the HOly Spirit..not man!

    It is not our prayer that heals anyone...it is still the power of God! Without the power of God..no one could be saved or healed!

    I never said we could command God to do anything and neither does the Bible! Jesus could only do what the Father showed him to do!
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    He can make Pluto inhabited with men that eat green cheese, and it you eat green cheese too, they will look favorably upon you and give you special blessings. How do you know he didn't do that?
    He can do anything he wants. That is your assumption.

    He can do and Scriptures do not deny that.
    That is your premise.
    He can do whatever ridiculous thing you bring up because: He can and Scriptures do not deny it. Do you know how much you can read into the Bible based on that premise?
     
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